Do people learn PHP?

[ingresman]

<soapbox>
This is not meant as a dig any one !!!
How do people learn PHP ??, I kind of got into when I found out you can't run PWS on windows Me (you can but that's a different story), I'd seen an article on PHP in the Informix tech news letter so thought Id give it a go, and never looked back. I orderd a WROX professional PHP book from Amazon, downloaded the documentation from the PHP site and bunkered in and learnt it. I still read anything I can, I just bought the CORE PHP book (with PHP 5 updates). It's a nice book to read although a little lacking in areas. What I'm getting to is do people do hard work before they come to this forum. The documentation has loads of info on things likes formating dates, the fact that PHP is a server side langauge etc. Is it just too hard for people to read up on these things when they can just post a thread here ?. The number of times I've responded with a reply that PHP is server side so you cant run stuff in the browser is fundemental to both PHP and thin client applications.
Don't get me wrong people do need a hand , I need a hand but I think most of is would like to answer in depth problems rather than stuff freely available in the documenation.
While I'm hear I think we see a lot of rudeness in the forum, perhaps frustration but never the less.
</soapbox>

 

[jimoblak]

The problem with a forum is that you cannot determine the experience of other users when they post. It may be difficult to relate to them. There is no crime in telling others: 'RTFM'.

Personally, I learned PHP by stumbling onto and picking apart PHPBB and then grabbing Larry Ullman's QuickStart Guide to PHP. I was fascinated by how you could integrate script and HTML in one file. Likewise, I have not looked back to Perl.

I agree that users should not walk into a forum without a basic introduction to a programming language or application. I would hope that everyone has either taken a class, read a book, or tried an online tutorial.

- - picklefish - -
Why is everyone in this forum responding to me as picklefish?

 

[iSeriesCodePoet]

I think there are three types of people who post to forums like this:
1) The slackers - This includes people looking for help on their homework. These people are too lazy to actually look it up or learn it.
2) The researchers - These people actually do research and try and find the solution, but either is confused or can't find one.
3) The rushed - A problem that they can't figure out, so they quickly post to start getting help as they go out and research.

I typically fall into # 3. I have a problem I can't figure out, to speed up gettting a solution, I will post to here and then start looking for solutions online. I know that isn't the best way to go, but if you think about it. You could waste a couple hours sometimes looking for information online, then it only takes 2 minutes after you post it on a forum like this. I am not usually looking for the fish. I want the fish (because I need it now) and how to fish in the process.

iSeriesCodePoet
iSeries Programmer/Lawson Software Administrator

http://www.koldark.net

See my progress to converting to linux.

http://linux.koldark.net

 

[ingresman]

On the fish thing,
give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll eat for life !.
I know people are rushed, can't research etc, what does realy bug me is the terse questions from people who havn't even tried to find a solution and get really hacked of with you because you cant burst intio life with a perfect solution for them !.
It's questions like "how do I make a string upper case" - rtfm !,
if it's a serious question, and you can usually tell, I think we would all help out as much as we can

 

[csbdeady]

One of the things that I have noticed is that my memory is very fallible

Therefore I know that I've seen a certain function before, but despite reading and searching through php.net and other sources I canot find it but still *know* that it exists. Therefore I've just posted an "anyone know the function name?" post. Not exactly rocket science stuff, but it's important to me and my brain really has failed to cough up the answer

I've also posted questions which I'm sure have been answered elsewhere (I can't be the first to ask surely me thinks!), but again despite research I cannot find the answer.

I agree with other posters - as long as a question is genuine there's no problem with it being posted. Afterall, we wouldn't want every post moderated for "technical content" as this is tek-tips.com and not a journal on computing.

-Colin

 

[sleipnir214]

cdbdeady:
Not all questions are necessarily legitimate.

Tek-Tips, as the logo in the top-left corner of every page attests, is "Technical Work Forums for Computer Professionals". [emphasis mine]

Even if the member asks a good question, if that member has no business in Tek-Tips, then neither do his questions.



Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[DRJ478]

IMO the best questions are the ones asking for how to fish or how to catch more fish.
I find it offensive to have posters reply to genuine attempts to help them with snide remarks because they are not spoonfed the solution to their problem.
It's ok to give out fish to the hungry, but I completely agree with ingresman that sharing how to fish is the real goal! I apologize for "enabling" slackers here and there.

 

[danomac]

ingresman: I have C/C++/VB and SQL backgrounds already (in fact, I still make the same syntax errors in PHP that I do in C.)

I for one do constantly search this forums for answers, as well as made php.net my homepage ;-) and it does seem that the more I use forums in general (not necessarily this one!), the less tolerant the forum members are to new people.

I'm sure even well-versed PHP members also cheat once in a while and post something in here that with enough time, they could have answered themselves.

Even I have posted some things regarding the server-side/client-side scripting issue for people that don't seem to understand what PHP is. As more people start using it though, more questions like this are bound to come, and if you don't have a programming background it gets even harder.

BTW, I used phpbb to learn bits and pieces too...

 

[danomac]

Oops, I should really check the dates of things I'm posting replies to. Sorry. )

 

[skiflyer]

We are a 90% self-moderated forum. It's almost our responsiblity to ignore people who are using it in frivolous and time wasting ways.

That said, it does seem to me the PHP forum is worse than others in this regard, but then again, I'm by far the most active in the PHP forum.

 

[ingresman]

I agree with most people who have commnented here. Let me set something straight. I have no problem with people who have genuine problems. But when you get the "I want the first 20 bytes of a string can I do it in PHP" questions, well yes look under string functions in the book !.
I think with PHP and ASP etc there is a always a bluring of what happens where so naturally people get confused between what the server does, what HTML does and very often what JavaScript can do. But the fundental client-server model escapes many !
I've dealt with all kinds of folk in my time in computer trade (23 years !!) but I must say I have found among the most rude here. I hope I dont come accross as rude but when things go into type (like in emails) comments can feel "short", so we all need to calm down. There was a fantastci thread just recently abotu a guy who was leaching from googe - pure entertainment !

 

[jimoblak]

RE: the Google leeching entertainment...

I was a little concerned about the personal attacks regarding programming skill and researched to find that he was not really a programming dolt as some here proclaimed:

http://www.resumesafari.com/resumes/203_Volkstorf.htm

What I found interesting is how often chvol's asked his question all over the internet. Google for 'chvol@aol.com' and you will find way too many posts to forums asking the same question he asked at Tek-Tips. He got the same answers everywhere else (you need terabytes of storage, you need to go to dmoz.org, etc). The extraordinary thing is how many more answers were provided by the Tek-tips community. That community support should be a reason for us to appreciate this forum.

- - picklefish - -
Why is everyone in this forum responding to me as picklefish?

 

[Moonspell]

I have to say that in some cases the answers are in the manual. quite often i am tempted to reply rtfm! however, in response to jimoblak, about chvol and his request for information - I do think it is important to keep people who are trying (or appear to be trying) to use information for non legitimate means from getting the info they want. When i first came to these forums i asked about accessing the logged on username on a lan pc. I got a stoney silence and had to work out something on my own! this is an example of information i have but would not post here, knowing that it may be used for nefarious purposes! I did post a link to the tools i used for part of the task but not the whole solution.

 

[ingresman]

Moonspell,

That's a really interesting point. I've just done some work for a thread here which allows you to upload a file from browser without going via the normal file/form method. The method I've worked out (and works !!) allows you to read (and write ) a file from the browser via OLEDB and msxml.
I wonder if it's a bit too clever to put into the public domain ?
With a little effort (not much really) I could see system files on PC.

 

[Moonspell]

I suppose there is a legitimate reason to use it somewhere but it all comes back to who will eventually use the code and for what. However, I made the mistake of getting embroiled in an arguement about something else here so I will chill.

to get to the original question, do you mean how did i learn or why?

if how, then i read the manual, looked at other peoples code and got a general feel for the language (the same way i learned JavaScript, VBScript, Visual Basic and C++).

if why .. hmm I have been using VB for some years and connecting to mysql databases is a pain. i have a dll to do it but there was so much else that needed to be setup. when i discovered php could do it sooooo easily it was time for a change. I have since converted all my VB aplications into PHP/Javascript and VBscript.