DirecTV Cabling 1

[sch3j]

I just had a dish installed today and can't get my signal to carry through my house. The satellite cables coming into the house from outside replaced the existing cable coax, but no signal is being transmitted through my house to the receivers. I have digital cable, so I don't think it is a matter of the coax within my walls not being able to carry the signal, although the house was built in 1977. Any ideas on what my problem might be?

If I plug the wires from outside directy into a receiver, I get signal, so the dish is installed correctly and passing a good signal. Thanks in advance.

 

[Servamatic]

How are you splitting the signal, you mentioned receiverS.
A standard splitter won't do the job for satellite signal between the dish and receiver.
Do you have RG6 or RG59 coax?

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.smartbuilthomes.com

 

[sch3j]

I have no idea, but I am guesseing I have the wrong one. How do I tell? I am not using a splitter...two cables come down from the dish...I am connecting them using a double-sided female connector to the existing cabling in the wall.

 

[daronwilson]

I guess I can't picture this whole setup. Essentially if you have two coaxs from the dish, you apparently have two LNB's. Either they are looking at the same satellite so you can have one for each receiver, or they are looking at two different satellites and give you all the channels on one receiver.

Now, if this receiver is set up for two coax feeds from two different birds, that is fine. They come down from the dish and need to go into the receiver. I'm not sure where you are trying to send them into the wall or how. You COULD take the RF out of the receiver on channel 3 or 4 and send THAT around the house (probably with an amplifier) then you could watch whatever was on the receiver anywhere in the house.

If you have multiple receivers so you can watch different things in different rooms, you would need a multiswitch to allow multiple receivers to work on the one dish.

A bit more explaining....please

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[Servamatic]

If you have a Dish Network Satellite, you will need a multi-switch from Dish, they tend to be proprietary.
(or at least they were a couple years ago when I was dealing with them)

I am curious, was this one of those free installs? or did you do it yourself?

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.smartbuilthomes.com

 

[sch3j]

This was a free install. Everything was going smashingly until the cables came through the wall from the outside.

Here is a little more info, Daron, that will hopefully be useful. The installation was one dish. I did not put the dish up (it is on top of my 4-story condo) so I don't have any info myself on what is going on up there...but I can only seen one dish, so I am pretty sure that is all I have. The guy that did the installation only spoke marginal English which is probably why I am on this bulletin board right now.

I do have TWO coax cables, though, so my assumption is that they are both running from one dish to serve two different receivers. Again, not sure, though. This is one of DirecTV's mini dishes and I think it only has one LNB, but am not positive. The install guy was trying to tell me something about how satellite signal cannot be split like cable signal. I am starting to understand what he was trying to say. With only one dish with 1 LNB, would I only be able to use one receiver??

Basically, I am trying to get signal to two different receivers in two different rooms using the coax infrastructure that was already in place in the walls by connecting to the root of the cabling structure with the two coax from the satellite. I am in Northern Virginia and the cable up here used to run on a dual-coax system...not sure why, but I think it was to help prevent theft. I think this is what is run through the walls. My current digital cable, though, which does come into the house on two coax plugs into these two cables and services the rest of the house. Something in my walls is not passing the satellite signal but IS capable of passing digital cable.

Tell me more about this multi-switch. Should I have gotten one of these with my installation if I only have one dish?
Thanks so much for your help!

 

[Servamatic]

Satellite signal between the dish and receiver is a 2Ghz signal, the receiver is basically a modulator that inserts the signal on channel 3 or 4 and then out to your TV's at the normal frequency range.
If the cable is coming into the house and has splitters in the line it won't work, which I assume is the case from what you have described. That is why cable TV will work and Satellite will not.
You either need a clean line without splits between the dish and any receivers, or in your case to use multiple receivers you need a multiswitch.
The multiswitch must be in the line coming directly from the dish. Then directly from the multiswitch to your receivers. Once it goes through the receiver you can use normal splitters, or even modulate the signal back into the distribution system within your home.
Here is a link showing a very basic satellite distribution system.

http://www.servamatic.net/html/satellite.html

There are many ways to cable it, this is just one.
There is a link on that page for a document that will show you how to even setup a sports bar for satellite...lol


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.smartbuilthomes.com

 

[daronwilson]

To over simplify things a bit, the LNB needs discrete voltages from the receiver to select the polarity of the antenna. If you have two receivers, you need that magic multiswitch to do that voltage switching for you so that you can watch two different things at the same time.

But, back to the discovery stage. What does it say on the back of the receiver where each of these coax cables plug in? Maybe that would help us understand precisely what you have.

There should be no problem using the coax in the wall (provided it isn't terribly old and unable to handle the frequencies needed) IF:

It is disconnected from the source of digital cable service AND there are no CATV splitters in the wall between where you want to go.

I'm not totally familiar with what Directv is selling this week, but if you let us know what it says on the back of the receiver, we should be able to help you.

Do you have one receiver in and operating properly? Does it have both coax feeds connected to it?




It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[sch3j]

That was extremely helpful! Thanks!

Now, suggestions for a quality low-cost multiswitch?

 

[Servamatic]

You might find one at Home Depot, Leviton sells one and HD carries Leviton...
Otherwise try a distributor that carries Leviton or satellite supplies.

If you area is anything like ours, there should be satellite places on nearly every corner...ok, so I exaggerate....


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.smartbuilthomes.com

 

[daronwilson]

there should be satellite places on nearly every corner...ok, so I exaggerate....

Out west it is Starbucks that is on every corner...

Be sure you take all the info on your system when shopping for a multiswitch, there are different types of service and I'd hate to steer you wrong.

Good Luck


It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[sch3j]

Oh...right...one more thing...I still need my cable for my cable modem. Is it possible to feed both the cable and satellite lines into a multiswitch and a diplexer at the point where they enter the house and then use the existing cabling in the walls to send BOTH signals throughout the house? Or...Would I just be better off switching my modem from cable to DSL through the satellite?

 

[Servamatic]

IS your internet connection coming through the satellite, or cable TV co.?


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.smartbuilthomes.com

 

[wires]

Assumptions:

You have DirecTV service and want to hook up two receivers.

You have a single cable modem and do not want to continue to have cable service to your TVs.

If these two assumptions are true you don't need a multiswitch but you may need to do some wiring. Going to DSL for your internet connection (broadband) is a good idea but satellite broadband is best left to rural areas where DSL and cable are not available. I am a strong supporter of DSL since I dislike the shared media and single ISP aspects of cable broadband.

Most likely the existing cable in you house contains one or more splitters. This would prevent the satellite receivers from being able to work. Finding splitters is difficult even if you have access to a TDR (Time Domain Refractometer) which can display variations in impedance which will indicate the presence (and distance in feet) of some device in the line.

Lacking a TDR I would go room to room in your house and open every cable outlet I could find. Don't forget the attic, basement and outside. Remove any splitters or other devices you find. Next connect one satellite receiver to the outlet you want to use. Then go to all the other places you found cable before and using a voltmeter check for voltage on the line. When you find between 12 and 18 volts DC you have found the other end of the cable from the receiver. The idea is to get this voltage carrying cable out the ground block and on to the dish. Once you get one receiver working then unplug it and do the second. It may be easier to install new cable from the ground block to the receivers.

Another forum member has successfully diplexed satellite and digital cable. See: thread575-552126 This may not work for a cable modem since the frequencies and power levels may be different. One option is to put the cable modem inside the house near the cable entrance using a separate cable and then go twisted pair (cat5) or wireless from there.

Best-O-Luck

 

[wires]

Whoops!

thread575-552126 does refer to a cable modem feed. It worked for davila99, YMMMV...

 

[AvayaNovice]

The short answer: No.

Cable modems are transmitted using two different channels. Digital channel 80, which is the forward path, and the reverse path -- which, is the reverse path (back to the CATV headend).

Playing with that signal in any degree will result in a no go.

If I were you, I'd call the CATV company and have them wrap in an outlet for your cable modem. It should be less than fourty dollars, and will save you many problems.

As far as splitting a sattelite signal...

Like everyone has said -- you need the special device to do it. The voltage being carried over the line for the dish itself would not travel correctly through the splitter, and further more, is of considerable risk to your RF equipment as they do not have built in power shunts (which is what a directional coupler has if it's designed to input voltage on the line, hence amplifiers that use RG-6 for their power feed).

And if I'm not mistaken, doesn't a "free" install usually include connection to the customer's equipment???

 

[sch3j]

Watch out! It is a free "STANDARD" installation. Apparently, if the installation requires anything more than attaching a dish and drilling a hole from the outside of the house to the inside, you are crossing over into a CUSTOM job.

It's no big deal...honestly, I am not upset. I got my dish installed on top of my 4-story condo building and my two receivers and it cost me a total of $15.73. The dish installation was really the only thing I couldn't do myself. I actually am looking forward to doing the work myself to get the system up and running...never been afraid of a bit of cabling in the past...I just didn't understand all the technology. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp now.

 

[daronwilson]

If these two assumptions are true you don't need a multiswitch but you may need to do some wiring

I must have missed something here, I thought you would need a multiswitch. I've not specifically dealt with DirecTV, but the other sat installations I've done required some sort of switching device to allow this.

How does one do the two receiver install without one?

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[wires]

DaronWilson:

In a standard DirecTV installation without high definition programming you have a single LNB with two outputs. Either output can handle either polarization depending on the voltage fed to it. Each of the two outputs can feed a receiver directly and everything works.

If you want more than two receivers with this type of setup you need a multiswitch. The multiswitch will "lock" one LNB output to one polarization and the the other LNB output to the other polarization. Receivers then "tell" the multiswitch which "locked" LNB feed they need by presenting a different voltage.

If you add services from a second satellite (typically hi-def) then the 4 input (2*2 output LNBs) multiswitch uses a 22kHz signal to select the second satellite.

Older Dish Network single satellite, two receiver setups work the same way as a DirecTV single satellite, two receiver setup. Beyond that it gets VERY different.


AvayaNovice:

The short answer: Maybe.

At least one forum member has diplexed DSS (satellite) and cable broadband onto a single coax, see: Thread575-552126.
Diplexers are a special type of bandpass filter that allow combining non-overlapping frequency spectrums onto the same media, in this case coax.

I agree that the BEST solution is a dedicated feed for the cable modem. At $40 it may also be the cheapest.

Using splitters that pass voltage on one output only it is possible to split a LNB feed to several satellite receivers. The problem is not one of damaging equipment but rather that the receivers on the DC blocked splitter outputs can only view the channels available on the polarization selected by the receiver on the output that passes DC.

"Free" installs don't include much that can't be accomplished quickly by a fairly untrained person. Many are ungrounded.

 

[AvayaNovice]

I agree somewhat; however, I can tell you right now if you pass DC voltage to a cable box, it will damage it. There are no power shunts, and I've done it before on accident, so trust me on that one. I don't know what kind of voltage we're talking about, but even a small DC transformer for an inline amplifier can do it.

Secondly.

Diplexing a cable modem reduces the return path by roughly 10-20DB (I've also done that before), and unless your return level is at about 30 (which is fairly rare at any distance from the tap) you're screwed, unless you put a return amp on it afterward -- which would cause intermittent signal loss.

So whomever diplexed in that thread posted above, had either ideal conditions... or it doesn't work consistantly.

Forward path is no problem, return path is a different story.