data problem 2

[charleshagen]

I have wired up a hotel that appears to be something like the Bermuda Triangle. I get disruptions in service and other problems. I will have clean data one day, nothing (except a connection) the next. It is not reaching a large group of rooms and these rooms are all next to each other.

I am even trying a powerline bridge unit set up...same results.

Any ideas?

Charles

 

[daronwilson]

It may be easier to help you if you give us a few specifics like type of wire, plugs, jacks, cords, equipment, layout, etc.

Give us a good description of what you did and are running on it, and we'll give it a shot.


It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[charleshagen]

CAT3 to rooms. THere are two com closets (1 & 2) and they are connected by a single 25 pair CAT3 at a distance of 280 feet. The router is a Netgear FVL328 and 3 switches; 2 switches in Com1, 1 switch in Com2...both are unmanaged switches. the cabling between Com1 and Com2 is in the hallway ceiling, as are 2 power conduits.

Is this enough information?

Charles

 

[mikeydidit]

Charles. It sounds like you may need a cabling upgrade. Cat 3 cabling is not a recognized standard for Ethernet. Cat 5 to the best of my knowledge is the lowest grade of cable that is still in the standards (TIA/EIA/568A). With the revisions made by TIA/EIA/568B Cat5E is now the lowest grade still accepted.


Mikey

 

[Bobg1]

Are you trying to run at 10m or 100m?
You should be able to get it to do 10m, but it is not acceptable for 100m.

 

[DToolsDesigner]

Please don’t take my questions the wrong way, but since I am not on-site I have to ask.

Regarding the 25 pair Cat 3, are you really trying to run data over a 25 pair?
I would be willing to make a large wager none of this was ever tested. Since you can not test 25 pair cable for data. What exactly are you using 25 pair for? How is it terminated?
By using cat 3 instead of cat 5 you saved maybe .01 per foot and now you see why it may not have been a good idea.
As for the standards, cat 5 is no longer recognized, cat 3 is recognized for voice only. The standard is cat 6 at this time, although a lot of cat 5e is being installed.
All that being said....

Are your NIC's and router set for 10BaseT only? They should be since you are running cat 3, if they are auto-negotiating and trying to connect at 100BaseT I would suspect this to be the problem.
Are you switches truly switches or hubs? Since you have switches in remote locations, how are they connected to the Router?
Cat 3 is VERY susceptible to EMI, do you have adequate separation between your cable and fluorescent lights and motors?

In the future I would use nothing less than cat 5e 4 pair cables for anything that data will transmit on, you don’t save ANY money by cutting corners on cable…cable is the cheapest part of the installation.


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[DToolsDesigner]

Forgot one important point.

Since cat 3 is really not a well twisted pair cable, having a 25 pair try to transmit data is comparable to trying to carry on a conversation in a very crowded elevator.
The proximity of the conductors and the lack of twist to counteract crosstalk is most likely a major contributor in your dilemma.




Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[daronwilson]

Well I have to echo the concerns of others, this sounds like either a total voice solution and someone tried to make data work on it, or a 10+ year old data solution on Cat3, which we did many of at the time with big backbone cable, vampire taps and AUI cables to the hubs.

You gave us a good description of the cable and the layout, and now we really want to hear what you are trying to do with it. What you describe might survive as a 10 mbs system, though I tend to agree that running 10 mbs ethernet on the 25 pair may be problematic.

1. Is any of this phone wiring or is it all data?

2. Can we get model number of the 'switches' to see what they really are?

3. Is the Cat3 station wiring terminated on patch panels and patch cables used to the switches?

If you are running what I imagine the wiring looks like at 10/100 speeds (or rather trying to) OR if this wiring is shared with voice services I can certainly see some problems.

So, keep going, give us as much detail as you can.

good luck!

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[gcunning]

IF this is such an itermittant problem I would look at intermittant reasons. Is there some power source in the ceiling interferring? A HVAC that runs when its hot? Is there condensation or water getting to your wires or contacts at some point. If there are HVAC vents in the same plenum area you could be getting shorts.
As this is a hotel there may be things going on that affect the service. Are there any patterns to the timing of it working or not?

The 25 wire pair between the closets probably punches down to a punch block on each end in the closets? If you are connecting to the punch block, try pulling the bare wires out of the back and attaching at RJ-45 directly to 4 of the wires, connect to the same 4 on the other end and you'll have a slightly cleaner connection.

If its feasable I would look to replace the CAT-3 with 6

You should also test the equipment directly, get a good 300ft CAt-6 cable, and run it on the floor to each closet, if this solves the problem you know you need better cable, if not then you should start looking more localy for intermitant problems on the networking equipment.
(router would be more suspicious than dumb switches.)

 

[wires]

You have installed a 10MBit network.

If you want to try to make it work ditch all the "modern" 10/100 switches and use older 10MBit hubs (very cheap on ebay). Most likley the 10/100 sense circuits in the new switches are getting confused.

A tester like a Fluke NetTool with the inline option is very helpful in troubleshooting something like this.

"you can not test 25 pair cable for data" BS!!! Put the correct adapters on your tester.

 

[Sphoneman]

When you stated wired up- is this new CAT3?

Are you utilizing PBX extensions?

Are you using LRE switches with POTS splitters for this application?

 

[DToolsDesigner]

TO: Wires......

You can't test 25 pair because a certification test requires testing EACH PAIR AGAINST EVERY pair in the jacket. Show me a tester that can do that.
All certification testers, which are the only ones that run all required tests, run 4 pairs only.
Next time you want to call someones comment BS you better darn well know what you are talking about.

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[wires]

TO: StarMan (DTools...)

&quot;you can not test&quot; <> &quot;certification test&quot;

Any testing on the cables would be helpful. In this situation certification is not necessary but finding any wiring errors will likley improve the chances of getting the network working.

To dismiss any testing with &quot;you can not test 25 pair cable for data&quot; is NOT helpful.

BTW this is more BS: &quot;As for the standards, cat 5 is no longer recognized, cat 3 is recognized for voice only&quot; Cat5 is still a STANDARD just as the newer Cat5e and Cat6 STANDARDS.

 

[JBeav]

>>In this situation certification is not necessary but finding any wiring errors<<

Seems to me that certification could have eliminated/reduced cabling questions. Assuming all else passed, length, wire map, etc., it's still no better than a cat3 system.

10mb is max. If rewiring is out of the question, you could at least run cat5 between the telecom rooms.

Jeff

 

[PhoneGuy2000]

Check the standards folks... Cat 5 is no longer recognized for new installs for data. 5e is the lowest cable grade acceptable. Cat 5 is however acceptable as a voice cable and if you have an installed base of cat 5, to becomes current standards compliant, using TSB97 you can test your cat 5 with the additional requirements and if they pass, they will be considered compliant.

Larry McNeill, RCDD, BICSI Technician

 

[charleshagen]

OK, we had CAT3 in the wall. We used it to the best ability we could and we are using wireless for the rest.

Charles