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Cynical Optimist 1
- Thread starter Scott24x7
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #3
Well, actually it was easy for me to validate, as I am an optimistic cynic.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
- Thread starter
- #5
Very little...but I am sure we can find something wrong with that, and probably be rather pleased with finding something.
But yeah; maybe a cynical optimist is an optimist who just can't help secretly feeling that it is all crap.
While an optimistic cynic knows that it is crap, but makes the best of it.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
But yeah; maybe a cynical optimist is an optimist who just can't help secretly feeling that it is all crap.
While an optimistic cynic knows that it is crap, but makes the best of it.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
Although, clearly from your posts I don't think anyone could believe there is anything secret about it....I would say you have made your POV fairly firmly.
BTW: this is with all due respect.....I am not being critical at all. I quite enjoy your posts, and the rants.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
BTW: this is with all due respect.....I am not being critical at all. I quite enjoy your posts, and the rants.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
I would have said that pesimism is the opposite of optimism, not cynicism, and therefore 'cynical optimist' is not an oxymoron.
Considering cynicism as 'the inclination to disbelieve human sincerity' and the assertion that 'self-interest motivates human behaviour' (from thefreedictionary), I can well believe it is possible to be a cynical optimist. Could it be that you are generally optimistic about most things (the weather, job prospects, your own abilities, etc) but are cynical where other people are concerned (no-one gives something for nothing, your boss is only out to make himself look good - not you, etc)?
This reminds me of a friend of mine who described himself as 'generally optimistic, but specifically pesimistic'. Despite normally being very optimistic, some things he is completely pesimistic about (he went on to give the example of England winning the world cup - despite all the hype and talk of this being the best prospect of a win for XXX years, he absolutely did not believe it was possible -lol).
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
Considering cynicism as 'the inclination to disbelieve human sincerity' and the assertion that 'self-interest motivates human behaviour' (from thefreedictionary), I can well believe it is possible to be a cynical optimist. Could it be that you are generally optimistic about most things (the weather, job prospects, your own abilities, etc) but are cynical where other people are concerned (no-one gives something for nothing, your boss is only out to make himself look good - not you, etc)?
This reminds me of a friend of mine who described himself as 'generally optimistic, but specifically pesimistic'. Despite normally being very optimistic, some things he is completely pesimistic about (he went on to give the example of England winning the world cup - despite all the hype and talk of this being the best prospect of a win for XXX years, he absolutely did not believe it was possible -lol).
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
- Thread starter
- #9
Tony,
See, now that's the kind of rationalizaiton I was looking for... I for one took a bet at 800 to 1 that it would not be a US/Mexico final... (I was the one offering the 800 to 1 odds), and as it turned out I was right, so I won $1. That said, I couldn't give a wet slab about soccer, let alone the world cup of it.
In generalities, I would agree, I am very optimistic (though it may not look like it on this forum). I also like being the devils advocate... someone has to stirr the pot, otherwise it just sits there dull.
When it comes to people... hmmm interesting notion. I put a lot of faith and trust in people and their abilities, I believe in them, and I'm one who generally helps others find more in themselves then they realized was there. That doesn't sound very cynical does it?
Best Regards,
Scott
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, and no simpler."![[hammer]](/data/assets/smilies/hammer.gif "[hammer] [hammer]")
See, now that's the kind of rationalizaiton I was looking for... I for one took a bet at 800 to 1 that it would not be a US/Mexico final... (I was the one offering the 800 to 1 odds), and as it turned out I was right, so I won $1. That said, I couldn't give a wet slab about soccer, let alone the world cup of it.
In generalities, I would agree, I am very optimistic (though it may not look like it on this forum). I also like being the devils advocate... someone has to stirr the pot, otherwise it just sits there dull.
When it comes to people... hmmm interesting notion. I put a lot of faith and trust in people and their abilities, I believe in them, and I'm one who generally helps others find more in themselves then they realized was there. That doesn't sound very cynical does it?
Best Regards,
Scott
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, and no simpler."
- Thread starter
- #11
Bellicose, argumentative, contentious - pugnacious, maybe? - but not cynical, Scott, no.
I turn the question around: what did you mean by describing yourself as a cynical optimist?
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
I turn the question around: what did you mean by describing yourself as a cynical optimist?
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
- Thread starter
- #13
Tony,
Just found myself very disillusioned today... and was being hard on people... though I had a positive outlook that it would get better... so I thought it to be cynical optimism. Just seemed a strange combination. I don't like the idea of being a cynic.
Best Regards,
Scott
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, and no simpler."
Just found myself very disillusioned today... and was being hard on people... though I had a positive outlook that it would get better... so I thought it to be cynical optimism. Just seemed a strange combination. I don't like the idea of being a cynic.
Best Regards,
Scott
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, and no simpler."
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I think there is a big difference between an optimistic cynic and a cynical optimist.
The optimistic cynic is optimisitic about all the cyncicism, but the cyncial optimist is cynical about the optimism.
![[cheers]](/data/assets/smilies/cheers.gif "[cheers] [cheers]")
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The optimistic cynic is optimisitic about all the cyncicism, but the cyncial optimist is cynical about the optimism.
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- Thread starter
- #15
CC, can you expand, say with an example? I can see the conceptual difference, but am finding it difficult to picture what that looks like in the real world.
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
- Moderator
- #17
Ahh... the old "half-empty, half-full" question.
When someone asks me if a glass is half empty or half full, I always respond "The glass is twice as large as it needs to be."
Just my 2¢
"In order to start solving a problem, one must first identify its owner." --Me
--Greg
A repeat:
a cynical optimist is an optimist who just can't help feeling that it is all crap.
an optimistic cynic knows that it is crap, but makes the best of it.
Real world example....
a wedding.
cynical optimist - they sure seem to be good together, but it will probably turn out bad.
optimistic cynic - it will probably fail...but who knows? Maybe not.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
a cynical optimist is an optimist who just can't help feeling that it is all crap.
an optimistic cynic knows that it is crap, but makes the best of it.
Real world example....
a wedding.
cynical optimist - they sure seem to be good together, but it will probably turn out bad.
optimistic cynic - it will probably fail...but who knows? Maybe not.
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
![[ponder]](/data/assets/smilies/ponder.gif "[ponder] [ponder]")
--me
Hmm, I'm not convinced, Gerry, but I'm struggling to express my reasons why. OK, consider:
cynic - one who is critical of the motives of others; who believes all people are motivated by selfishness; whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.
optimist - one who is disposed to take a favourable view of things; who usually expects a favorable outcome.
As cynicism is geared towards people's motives, and optimism is geared more generally towards the outcome, I'm not sure they can be linked in this way. Cynicism isn't just seeing a bleak outcome, like pesimism, it's more of a warped/skewed judgement of someone's reasons for an action that results in a bleak outcome. If that makes sense!
In your examples, to me, the first could be cynical or pesimistic and the second, arguably, optimistic or pesimistic - only at a stretch, cynical. Both depend on whether a value judgement is being made on the motivation of the people concerned. There almost needs to be more information in each case to decide.
What about how types of people would interpret your second phrase, to expand:
Pesimist - will be drawn to the words "... will ... fail" and no doubt believe that is the case, no matter what anyone else says.
Cynic - believes that the person saying the phrase, and the couple getting married, are inherrantly self-serving and unscrupulous and will form a suitably scornful, acidic view of all parties and the prospect of the marriage.
So, I think it may be possible to be cynical in regard to people's motivation, but still generally positive about outcomes and therefore a 'cynical optimist', but you cannot be both cynical and optimistic about the same thing.
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
cynic - one who is critical of the motives of others; who believes all people are motivated by selfishness; whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.
optimist - one who is disposed to take a favourable view of things; who usually expects a favorable outcome.
As cynicism is geared towards people's motives, and optimism is geared more generally towards the outcome, I'm not sure they can be linked in this way. Cynicism isn't just seeing a bleak outcome, like pesimism, it's more of a warped/skewed judgement of someone's reasons for an action that results in a bleak outcome. If that makes sense!
In your examples, to me, the first could be cynical or pesimistic and the second, arguably, optimistic or pesimistic - only at a stretch, cynical. Both depend on whether a value judgement is being made on the motivation of the people concerned. There almost needs to be more information in each case to decide.
What about how types of people would interpret your second phrase, to expand:
Optimist - will be drawn to the words "... Maybe not" and will think the best of the person saying the phrase and its object (the marriage).fumei said:
Pesimist - will be drawn to the words "... will ... fail" and no doubt believe that is the case, no matter what anyone else says.
Cynic - believes that the person saying the phrase, and the couple getting married, are inherrantly self-serving and unscrupulous and will form a suitably scornful, acidic view of all parties and the prospect of the marriage.
So, I think it may be possible to be cynical in regard to people's motivation, but still generally positive about outcomes and therefore a 'cynical optimist', but you cannot be both cynical and optimistic about the same thing.
Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)
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