Currently employed and looking for work 2

[philote]

First let me say that I do love my current job and would continue to work there except that the compensation and benefits are just barely enough to support a family on. So I've decided to look around to see what else is out there. The problem is, since I like where I'm at now (minus compensation) and the people I work with, I feel guilty about looking for other jobs. I'm still relatively new to IT, so it may be hard to find other work, but recently several prospects have come up.

One question I have is how to gather references to give to prospective employers. I mean, there's several co-workers and supervisors from previous employers that I'm sure would say good things about me, but I haven't talked to them in years and am not even sure if I can get in touch with them now. I also would like it if I could get someone at my current job as a reference, but how do I ask them? I know they want to see me be successful but I also don't know if I should tell them I'm seeking other employment.

I'm also worried about how to explain to prospective employers why I want to leave my current job. It's basically because I want more money, which sounds bad but I'm tired of struggling to keep my head above water financially. I also don't see that my current position offers much in the way of advancement. I work for a small company as their only IT person, but feel like I'll ever have much say in anything. Also, being the sole IT person, I have learned to work independently, but I miss having others I can have discussions with on my level. Is that a reason I could give for wanting a new job?

 

[LesleyW]

Re references - your dilema is a common one and therefore it is standard practice (at least in the UK) for a new employer not to take up references until a firm job offer has been offered and accepted. At that stage your current firm will have to know you are leaving them! If you need to fill in names and addresses on an application form, I would get hold of one of those people you used to work with and get them to agree to give a reference, and explain you will provide a referee from your current firm when you have a firm offer from them.

As for giving reasons why you want to leave - you've answered your own question. YES lack of opportunities for advancement and team-working are very good and acceptable reasons for seeking new work. I think you probably know it's a very bad idea to diss your current employer to a prospective one, and it doesn't sound like you want to do that anyway.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

 

[ChrisHunt]

You know your situation at your current employers better than we can, but ideally if you're not happy with the pay and/or conditions you should tell them about it.

If you can point to similar jobs in the marketplace with much higher salaries maybe you can get your employer to match that rate. They may have to do so anyway to attract a new person.

Sensible bosses are going to be more annoyed at you leaving without giving them the chance to remedy the situation than they would have been at you asking for a raise.

-- Chris Hunt

http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk

http://www.napitalia.org.uk

http://www.leicesteryha.org.uk

 

[SQLSister]

Chris is right ask for a raise first before you do anything.

AS to what to say, I don;t think anyone will be upset if you say you are leaving becasue you want a higher salary. What is bad to say when asked that question is anything that looks like you are dissing the company you work for. Such as I'm leaving because the managers are idiots. The statement about wanting more contact with other IT people will only work if you are interviewing for a company that has more IT people. It could cost you the job at another small company.

 

[josepablomir]

Didn’t you know? There is a war up there!
Your job is not secure. Do you think the fact that you have done a thousand maneuvers to cover your family budget while maintaining this job will be important for your current employer if he find a cheaper way of replacing you? It is obvious he doesn’t care about your needs right now (I suppose you’ve already asked for a rise).
Find a better job, and after you have it secure go to your current employer and renegotiate your conditions bravely.
Do you need references? Go to those people you mention, previous employers are a good source for references. Current co-workers? Mmm.., it could be dangerous, your current employer could know about your plans before you get ready for renegotiation; that’s not good for you. Depending on what type of job you have you could look for “customers” and even “suppliers” references.
You could say you prospect employers about growing opportunities and teamwork as two important reasons why you are looking for a new job. But you HAVE TO tell them that the real reason is MONEY (better salary, commissions, or whatever); you will want to start your new life (because this is not “just” a job, it is your life we are talking about; and your family’s also) being properly considered.
You have to plan your strategy and implement massive action toward its success. Just keep in mind not to burn your bridges. You have to do it like a professional. And don’t worry, nobody is going to get hurt. You will be surprisingly amazed seen how fast your current employer will find a solution to cover your position. If you could give him a list of replacements do it, but don’t let the lack of it to slow you down.
Be rough, be professional, and don’t worry, there is not such a thing as “sensible bosses” (they have been re-engineered long ago).

Regards,

Jose.-



_________________
Pablo Mir

http://www.pablomir.com

pm@pablomir.com
NJ, (973) 699-2043

 

[BJCooperIT]

There are more diplomatic ways of saying:
I want more money!

Try one of these:
1. My family has grown faster than my income has.
2. Since my wife now stays home with the kids, our budget is tight.
3. There is no opportunity for advancement with my current employer and I have decided, for my family's sake, to look elsewhere.
4. Unfortunately, the compensation and benefits I currently receive do not match my family's needs.

You ask: "Also, being the sole IT person, I have learned to work independently, but I miss having others I can have discussions with on my level. Is that a reason I could give for wanting a new job? "
Absolutely!

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[philote]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses!

LesleyW,
What you said about references definitely makes sense and I believe that's usually the case over here as well. The reason I was going to list references is that I know someone who was going to make a call and put in a good word for me with a company I'm applying at. This person said I should put her name down as a reference and if I did that, it'd make sense to list more than one reference. But I think I'll just let her make the call and not list references, especially since I don't really know her ( she's a co-worker of my mother ).

As for all the good tips on what to say, you all pretty much confirmed what I was thinking but I needed to hear it from someone else because I didn't want to sound greedy.

I'll also go ahead and ask another question, though I don't need to worry about it yet. If/when I do get an offer from another company, how do I determine how long before I leave my current position? There's probably no straight answer here, but any tips would be nice. I would ideally like it if my current company could hire someone quickly so I could show them some of the things I've done and give them some training. I would also like to help them weed out some of the applicants. But would my new employer be sympathetic to this and should I bother?

Thanks again for all the replies!

 

[BJCooperIT]

In the U.S. two weeks notice is the norm. I would say it depends on your new employer's time frame. If they do not need you ASAP, you could give your employer 4-6 weeks notice to allow training your replacement.

BUT, based on my personal experience, do not be surprised if after handing in your notice, your current employer strips you of all computer access passwords and contact with users. If you work for a paranoid boss like I did, they cannot get you out the door fast enough!

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[OhioBill]

Two weeks is standard. Your new employer will see this as a benefit and a credit to your integrity. That said, I would like to stress that BJCooper is quite right. Your present employer is the reason you're leaving, and may well deactivate your account without warning.

 

[RiverGuy]

I wouldn't feel guilty about looking for another job at all. They should understand if they think realisticly.

As far as references, I would put down some trustworthy, intelligent friends, even if they don't work in IT.

You could also try to put together a portfolio of things you are capable of doing.

 

[philote]

I'm not concerned about being let go immediately upon giving my letter of resignation. First of all, security seems to be the last thing on my employer's mind. Secondly, since I handle all the IT stuff in the company I alone know all the passwords and have access to pretty much everything, so they kinda have to trust me.

I would spend the 2-6 weeks after giving my resignation making sure everything I did there was documented so that my replacement wasn't completely lost. I'm actually already trying to keep good notes on the network layout, cgi scripts I've written, passwords I use, etc.

I sent in a cover letter and resume today for the position I eluded to earlier. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon with a respone.

 

[josepablomir]

1 week will do fine.
You are the expert, you are not in debt with your current employer; he is in fault with you because of improper salary.
Last think you need is to loose your new oportunity because excesive delay.
Be professional but be agresive, from now on.

Regards,

Jose.-



_________________
Pablo Mir

http://www.pablomir.com

pm@pablomir.com
NJ, (973) 699-2043

 

[BJCooperIT]

josepablomir,
I have to disagree. One week is not enough notice to give an employer who has treated you well. Here in the U.S. at least two weeks notice is expected in order to effectively transfer knowledge and wrap up tasks. The fact that they cannot or will not offer a salary you think you deserve is beside the point.

One week notice is, in some instances, burning your bridges behind you. Your supervisor, who most likely will have to take over your work, will not be inclined to give you a glowing reference. "They were a good employee for a while, but they left abruptly and it took months for our department to recover." Your co-workers might be disinclined to give a good reference also. "They did not stay long enough for me to learn critical tasks and our servers were down for a week!"

Most prospective employers appreciate the two week standard. If they need you sooner, they ask. Then you can ask your current employer if one week is enough. If not, some will work with you to get you out the door in a week, but have you work as a "consultant" for a few weeks/months on evenings or weekends to effect a smooth transition. This earns you glowing referals and keeps all your options open. It also looks wonderful on your resume.

I still go back and help folks from 2 contracts ago and they give me the best referrals I have ever had in 30+ years in the business.

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[chiph]

> but have you work as a &quot;consultant&quot; for a few weeks/months on evenings or weekends to effect a smooth transition. <

Not to mention some good money -- when I was laid-off at my last job, they had to call me back in to consult, and they had no problems paying me $90/hr for it (the going rate at the time in my region).

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

It is hard to say what your current employer will do when you say you have another position lined up.

I would say ask for a raise before you mention other seeking other positions. Either they'll try to work towards it or they won't. Using another position as a bargining chip isn't good. It is a strong arm tactic and you'll find you be worse off in the long run. Besides if you goto them and ask for a raise and they say they can't because of x,y,z and you get another job and they suddenly give you a raise they obviously are not on the straight an narrow.

Once you find another position you'll probably find they want you ASAP. So give your notice (how ever long you are required to) It is your current employers responcibility to get someone in within that time and trained up. If your new job has a longer time before they want you to start tell your current employer when you are leaving giving them the extra time to find a replacement.

Don't let yourself be made to feel guilty. Giving 2 or 4 weeks notice is not bad if that is what your contract says.

It seems cold but you need to look at this from your new employers view to. If you go &quot;Well I'd like to give my current employer as much time as they need to find a replacement...&quot; you shouldn't be surprised to know that in their mind they are thinking something like &quot;Thats really nice of him but we need someone right away...hmmm Bob who we interviewed yesterday is ready to start and has similiar skills...&quot;

Be professional while looking after your own interests. You don't have stock options with your current employer so don't worry about things that aren't your responcibility. Hiring someone in a timely fashion isn't your job.


Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[oharab]

Here in the UK, 1 month's notice is usually standard, but I have to give 2 months, according to my contract & my SO has to give 3.
I'm not sure how binding they would be, but they certainly affect references if you just up and leave.

ben

----------------------------------------------
Ben O'Hara

http://www.RobotParade.co.uk

&quot;Where are all the stupid people from...
...And how'd they get so dumb?&quot;

NoFX-The Decline
----------------------------------------------

 

[josepablomir]

Are you going to risk a better job just because those who don’t recognize your work and your real value want to keep squeezing you until the very end?

Plan and develop your professional strategy.

Find a better-paid job, and make arranges to start it THE NEXT MONDAY!!!!

Only after securing the new job you should explain your current boss the situation. And put a lot of extra effort in making him understand that this is BECAUSE OF MONEY!!! Not even mention other reasons to him.

Be polite.

Because you care about your actual organization’s immediate future you are going to make one last effort and let them hire you as a consultant, freelancer, contractor, or whatever you want to call it, for a standard industry fee (not the peanuts they are used to give you for your tricks), if they feel the organization needs it. You are not forcing them, you are giving them a solution.

As someone else wrote in a previous answer, the problems that your organization will suffer if you leave tomorrow are 100% your boss’ responsibility.
And YOU MUST make him know that you know that.

Are you concerned about blowing bridges? You should!
But you MUST understand that keeping those bridges will depend more on how well you handle this issue rather than how submissive you keep being.

You are not destroying a poor organization which is going to suffer your selfishness. You are helping your family by growing professionally AND, at the same time, YOU are giving your boss the opportunity (by hiring you as a consultant) to overcome HIS fault (your low salary + his lack of HR strategy). You are a hero!

Regards,

Jose.-


_________________
Pablo Mir

http://www.pablomir.com

pm@pablomir.com
NJ, USA

 

[BiggerDon]

I think any HR policy that is in place when you started would dictate how long of a notice period you may have to give. At my current job, staff need to give two weeks but management must give a month. That being said, if the relationship goes sour after you give your notice, the shorter the time is the better.

If there isn't any formal policy, it's been my experince that one pay period is sufficient. Realistically, you don't have to give any notice. I was resigning from a job at Sprint and in my letter I stated &quot;..effective immediately...&quot; due to my access and passwords. Usually in a large IT shop, you give your notice and they escort you to your desk to pick up your personal items and are walked out the door on the spot. My manager asked me to revise that to two weeks if I didn't mind. I didn't and stayed for the extra two weeks to help pass my projects on to others.

If you are still relatively new to IT do you have any former class mates you could recommend as a replacement? I'm presuming you graduated from a course recently of course. There is nothing wrong with telling them that the job just isn't enough of a challenge or compensation for you but you know someone who would fit the bill for them. It's always nice to leave those bridges in tact.

Oh yeah...good luck with the other job!