Considering Shoretel solution 6

[WallyWest]

My company is reviewing proposals to replace our Nortel Meridian option 52 c pbx. One of the proposals is for Shoretel. We have 100 total users in a single site with a customer service department of 10 agents that currently participate in an ACD queue. The other systems in consideration are Avaya and Iwatsu.

The other proposals are VOIP enabled and could support VOIP phones where need (for telecommuting for instance)but the proposed office handsets are digital at a considerable cost savings to the IP sets in the Shoretel proposals. One of my concerns is that by introducing more devices onto the network, I've introduced complexity and need to introduce and maintain QOS and possibly VLANS- not necesaarily a big deal, but more work. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that having an IP handset is superior to a digital set (except that they are easier to move- a very minor benefit in our small building)

Anyone out there with experience in one or more of these?

 

[BE36]

Why are you changing phone systems at all then? You probably have digital sets now.

Do you do your own wiring, make adds, moves and changes without having to call a vendor? If so, these may be reasons you want to have digital sets. It could save your job, but is it the best decision for your company? If you have to pay someone to do this, then you may be better off going with IP sets where a person can take their IP phone, plug it in at their desk and it goes to work. Do you pay someone to program the features on someone's phone or do the end users have that capability. Do you pay someone to change the key strips for a new feature or number on the phones. Are all of the phones self-labeling? Do the digital sets have failover capability to other digital ports? IP sets can have this failover to certain other IP ports.

If you get digital sets now and want to make them all IP in the future, what is it going to cost to change out the equipment from the different vendors to make it a true IP PBX?

Are you looking at the TCO (Total cost of Ownership) for the period of time you expect to keep the new system? Or, are you just looking at the "upfront" cost?

What does it cost for software upgrades and releases? Do you have to do each upgrade/release before you can go to the next upgrade/release?

What type of redundancy are you looking at for your new system? You mentioned an ACD (call center). Have you looked at the administration of each system including voice mail and the call center?

You're correct. Digital sets are cheaper than IP sets. Could it be that they are also not as flexible to use. Can you plug your computer into the digital set using only the one data cable. No. IP sets can plug into the Ethernet network and contain a 2-port switch so the computer can plug into the IP set using the same Ethernet cable.

Again, digital sets may "appear" to be less costly in the short run, but in the long run could be more costly.

Besides, there are many more things to look for in the Total Cost of Ownership than the one-time upfront cost difference between digital and IP sets as mentioned above. And we haven't even talked about the productivity savings of users who will use the Personal Call Manager on their PC and hardly ever touch the phone.

Lastly, what will be available in the next few years on IP sets that will never be available on the digital sets. If you've looked at the sales of PBX's from the major vendors then you know they are no longer making anything but IP based PBX's. Could they just be trying to get rid of their digital sets (inventory)? You should have each vendor come in and give you a demo and let them explain why they are recommending digital sets over their IP sets. What's in it for them to do that? Just to get the business based on the upfront price? Ask them why they even make digital sets anymore for an IP system.

Just trying to give you some things to think about.

Good luck.

 

[R3LzX]

The other proposals are VOIP enabled and could support VOIP phones where need (for telecommuting for instance)but the proposed office handsets are digital at a considerable cost savings to the IP sets in the Shoretel proposals. One of my concerns is that by introducing more devices onto the network, I've introduced complexity and need to introduce and maintain QOS and possibly VLANS- not necesaarily a big deal, but more work. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that having an IP handset is superior to a digital set (except that they are easier to move- a very minor benefit in our small building)"

You are absolutely correct if you want to sail smooth and avoid the POE cost as well as the ip handsets then I would go digital. The avaya solution will allow you to keep your original investment in infrastructure without having to go ip and yet still get all of the benefits of an ip telephony solution. Even adds moves and changes are now possible (swapping digital users) without resetting anything, so the digital / ip experience is completely seamless. The Avaya 5410 phones costs around $200.00 if you look in the right place, and the basic hunt group ACD comes with the IP Office. the system has come a long way and is over one million users strong. I Personally left the shoretel arena because it could not compete in the enterprise, in small offices it is ok, easy to deploy, however there are issues with the handsets not being really all that sturdy (cheaply made in my opinion) and partial reliability on the server for call distribution (the hunt groups etc have to go through the server to some degree) as well as the fact that there is a lot of fear uncertainty and doubt as to whether the company will even make it with all of the patent infringement it is incurring. Furthermore, from a research and development standpoint they have like 7 patents where Avaya has 3500+. there is a reason Avaya runs 90% of the fortune 500.

http://www.google.com/patents?q=shoretel

http://www.google.com/patents?q=avaya

You will hear users like Gsmitherman brag about shoretel on this board, and how good it is, etc. If It was such a great product it would have more market share, more patents, and more customers. IP Office may not be perfect, but as long as you have the right business partner installing the system, you will eliminate 99.999% of the issues that people have. You will have a great system at an affordable cost that will lead you into the right direction with an 8 billion plus dollar company behind you, that is here to stay verses shoretel which I think earned 60 million last year and has like 200 employees. And one or two locations and no outside services department, what a joke.


You mentioned Telecommuting, I just deployed a telecommuting solution for one of my customers that wants to have a phone in Europe, I deployed the Avaya VPN Phone. VPN Logon information embedded in the handset, he took it to France and plugged it in and it logged its self into the firewall and he had dial tone. All on an ip office. Not Cisco, nor Shoretel, nor Nortel has that level of telecommuting capability.

 

[GSmitherman]

One thing you have to be aware of as well, is people like R3LzX get on the ShoreTel site and no little to no knowledge about ShoreTel. They sell Avaya and try to talk bad about ShoreTel due to the fear of this product.
Why is it always the Avaya guys who come to this forum to talk bad about ShoreTel. Maybe it's because Avaya was sold and they fear for the life of this product.
You want to talk smooth implementation. I have been busy with an install. The customer was without phone service for less than 1 minute. Can you do this with IP Office? NO!
You must be joking when you talk about Avaya Research and Developemnt. There is no such thing since Avaya was sold. Avaya needs to create many more patents since it bases it's IP systems off of old TDM technology. ShoreTel bases it from the ground up. More doesn't automatically mean better.
BE36 makes alot of sense. Just because it is cheaper up front doesn't mean it will be in the long run.
Good luck in your decision. I have alot of experience with both Avaya and ShoreTel. If all things are equal I would go with ShoreTel.

 

[indytechman]

GSmitherman brings up a good point. Why does Avaya techs and in particular R2D2, R3LzX or whatever her name is keep posting on this forum? Is that fear I smell? They probably have alot of time on their hands since no one wants to buy their junk. Why didn't R3LzX tell that his piece of junk has to be rebooted if you change the extension number? I am sure customers can have their system rebooted during normal business hours or wait until the end of business. In the Shoretel world this takes less than a second and no reboot necessary.
How many sites can you manage with IP Office Manager? One! You have to be kidding me. One site is all you can manage and you are proud of that junk. ShoreTel can manage all of the sites with logging off one site to make a change in another site.
Hey ask anyone about IMS. What a piece of unreliable crap. Look at the amount of issues they have in their forum. This shows what a hunk og junk IP Office is.
Sorry for being so long winded. I bet R3LzX left ShoreTel, If she worked with ShoreTel, because like Avaya she doesn't understand IP Telephony.

 

[crumthwacket]

indy:

I am an Avaya dealer, but I consider myself objective. Your comments are neither objective nor accurate. In fact, I would say you're a troll.

 

[GSmitherman]

Crum,

Are you a ShoreTel dealer? I doubt it. If you were you would not even begin to compare Avaya and ShoreTel. Name the Avaya switch that has been rated 99.999% reliable. Times up, there isn't one.
How do you manage numerous switches/pbx's? Answer...you log off and log on to the other switch. ShoreTel allows you to manage all switches from one screen.
How many IP office modules have we had to replace? In the past year we have replaced 6 IP Office modules. How many Shoretel switches have we replaced...ZERO!
Avaya is so scared of competition, they want their business partners to only sell Avaya if they want to be a platnium dealer. ShoreTel doesn't care what other products their business partners sell.

 

[indytechman]

A troll is someone who gets on a forum to bash a product they know little to nothing about. I have over 20 years experience in the Avaya world. I dont go to any Avaya forum to bash their junk. R2D2 or whatever her name is likes to come here and bash ShoreTel.
I wasn't trying to be objective. I was stating the facts. Facts are Avaya is junk.
Years ago I felt Avaya was the best product known to man. Gradually all the people that were worth a crap left or were let go. I remember when you left Avaya training you were ready and capable of programming/installing their product. Now most people who go to their training know more about the product that the instructors. You don't even want me to start in on Avaya's support.
Avaya has killed off the superior voicemail (Octel) only to push there inferior product. The Magix is about to go. The push IP Office but when competing against ShoreTel say we are not ready for total IP solutions.
I would like to point out again it is only the Avaya trolls that get on here and bash ShoreTel. Other manufacturer's are secure in their product. I guess when Avaya was sold, it made alot of people nervous.

 

[crumthwacket]

Geez, GSmitherman - don't have another hissy-fit. I wasn't talking to you anyway. Your posts speak volumes about you.

indytechman: Like you, I've installed Octel (and Avaya) for a loooooong time, and still have a few that have required no maintenance whatsoever for over 12 years - they run on the best pbx ever built, Definity (there's your 5 9s, smithers!)

The truth is the only people who frequent this site are techs anyway, so bashing another product won't get you anywhere, anyway. I wish IP Office would be better than it is, but it will get there and has shown truly enormous improvement over the last 6 years. It's a great product now. I don't believe ShoreTel will be around in 10 years due to lack of market share and capital. Sorry - that's my opinion.

I don't give a damn about R2D2's statements. If he/she bothers you, ignore.

 

[GSmitherman]

Crum-


I know Indy doesnt need me to defend him. I hate when people get on here and bash a product they do no know or install. I have programmed/installed Partners,Legends,Definity's and IP Office's. I have travelled America programming/installing Octels. I dont go to the Avaya forum and bash Avaya. I have been installing ShoreTel for awhile now and in my opinion it is head and shoulders above any product Avaya has. I am tired of people (it seems to always be Avaya people) that want to come to this forum and bash Shoretel.
You want to call Indy a troll, what is your experience? You say you are objective, how many ShoreTel systems have you installed?

 

[crumthwacket]

Indy"? What is this? Raiders of the Lost Ark? You're his only fan - he's new to this site, gives you a star, agrees with you, and now you're his staunch defender. Give me a break!

I can be objective about something without installing a product; I haven't bashed ShoreTel at all. I think that you and "Indy" have some sort of inferiority complex or something. If any bashing has gone on it's been from you!

 

[indytechman]

Crum -

Why dont you read your previous post where you called me a Troll. Thats not bashing? Then you want to talk crap to other people on here.
Other people on this forum have experience with both products. If we or they feel Avaya is crap or inferior, at least we have made a decision based upon our actual experience and not an Avaya Sales brochure.

 

[Deweyhumbolt]

I've been a telecommunications guy since 1980. I started with (an original Baby Bell)Pac Bell. I started my own in 1990 making RJ45 clips for Merlins , yes you needed all 4 pairs. I had the Allstate contract for all 5 Southern California Counties. Every neighboorhood agent had his own switch, Comdial, TIE, Premier, NEC, Vodavi, Northern Telecom, no ROLMs because they were too small. I've seen them all.

Then in 1992 I saw a Nortel (Northen Telecom) Norstar. Best SMB switch ever. Not even close. I consolidated all my hard earned accounts behind this product. My family and employees benefitted. This bullet-proof product lead to my intro to VoIP with the BCMs/CSEs. I waste all your times in promoting myself to make a point.

Shoretel Rocks! I know VoIP, I know TDM, I know 1A2. This is the modern day, if your a telecommunications tech under 50 and haven't made the transition, Good Luck. I'm now responsible for an Option 81, with 5 remote offices all on Shoretel. When Gsmith explains how awesome it is to pull up Shoreware Manager and see EVERY switch under your command. No way with BCMs, plus see an icon showing obvious alarms. Untouchable.

If your a REAL tech, your interest is your customers. Nortel with set relocation had it figured out. Now, from my little viewpoint Shoretel has it figured out. I don't care if there corporate structure is lacking or doomed to failure. There product is so well thought it, it's sick. We techs are out of a job if Shoretel makes it. They are that customer intuitive. AT&T (Bell Labs)/Lucent/Avaya and any other names I missed are behind the curve, and live on there past history. Shoretel (Bar Rafaeli), Avaya (Paris Hilton). You choose.

I thought these sites were for techs, not salesman/saleswoman.




Adversity is Opportunity

 

[GSmitherman]

Well said Dewey!!

 

[indytechman]

Crum-

What happened? Why are you suddenly so quiet? Do you need help finding an Avaya brochure so you can respond? I was waiting to hear,"I don't install ShoreTels, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

[jkupski]

The truth is the only people who frequent this site are techs anyway

Speaking as a potential customer that is looking at Shoretel, Nortel, and Avaya, I can say that the above is simply not true.

Happily, none of you speak for the manufacturers, so I can continue my evaluations without bad feelings toward any of them--however, I wouldn't want to do business with anyone who has posted in this thread, except maybe BE36 who provided what amounts to the only useful reply. Star for him.

 

[GSmitherman]

Good luck in your search jkupski. I am glad you would not hold anything I said against ShoreTel. The product is outstanding.

 

[crumthwacket]

Indiana Jones:

I was working. If you read my post CLOSELY this time, you should be able to see that I have not, at any time, said anything disparaging about the ShoreTel product. I did say I do not think they'll be around in 10 years, and I stand by that statement. I did, however, enjoy tweaking you and you're buddy smithers.

Mr. Kupski: you have frequented this site for longer than GSmitherman, indytechman, and I have, so you're not quite as pure as the driven snow you would like me to believe. I see you have numerous posts on the Nortel site. I don't care if you buy from me or not; I don't care if you buy an Avaya product from someone else, or even a ShoreTel product from the other 2 guys - just don't try to bulls**t a bulls**ter.

I'm done. No mas.

 

[WallyWest]

We've selected our system. I won't be using tek-tips to ask for professional advice\experience again. Very little helpful information buried in a lot of pointless arguments.

 

[jkupski]

crum,

I stand by what I said--not everyone on this site is a professional, and those of us who are are experts in our own fields, and not EVERY field. Yes, I've been here about five years, and I'd never say that I lack technical experience, but when it comes to telecom, I am a rank amateur at best. I'm not a Nortel tech, I'm an end user. I frequent the Nortel board on this site because I have a MICS that I'm responsible for.

As an IT manager for a mid-sized manufacturing company, my job includes selecting, implementing, and maintaining everything from desktop PCs, to phone systems, to test equipment, you name it. We don't have a budget to have the vendor come in and do MACs, so we learn how to do them ourselves. We don't have the time to wait four hours for a tech to arrive on a service call, so we are effectively level 1 support for every device in house. That does not, however, make me an expert. When the times comes to select new gear in a field I am fairly unfamiliar with, I turn to the usual sources (vendor reps, google, peers in other organizations, etc.) Since I am considering Shoretel, I was happy to see a forum for the devices in a community I normally place a good deal of trust in (i.e. this one.)

Again, I stand by what I said: not everyone on this board is a tech, MANY are end users, and many of those are in over their heads (I'm helped out more than my share of those in various forums.) People even come information gathering for new projects they're working on (again, I've helped out more than a few of those.) Suggesting that the general immaturity that this thread displays doesn't matter because everyone here is part of the club is just wishful thinking.