computer shuts down for odd reasons ^_^

[cheerioboy]

The first time the computer started to have problems it would shut down when large applications were run (so it seemed), and then from there it started to shut down during idle times, rebooting and getting stuck in boot with failure to find master drive.

For some reason after this the idea that something was overheating in the computer was proposed, so for temporary relief the side pannel was taken off and a fan was propped up.

That seemed to work, the computer has been running fine for weeks. Running programs and leaving the computer on 24/7 hasn't been a problem.

Now for the second screwy shutdown. When the cold cathode light is switched on, the monitor goes blank and the computer doesn't appear to reboot but theres a sound message from the motherboard saying that the cpu failed to overclock. Turn the power off, turn light switch off, reboot, boots fine. The light used to always be on untill a day ago when it was shut off. Now there is no way to keep i on without the motherboad saying theres a failure with the CPU.

Right now the guesses are that theres a problem with the Power Supply or the fan on the Processor.

Power Supply: Enermax 450watt EG365P_VE
Processor: Athlon 2100 w/retail fan*

*not being overclocked.
-other note is that the case has only one fan on the rear
-the power supply has another

So also thinking about airflow problems, but not dealing with the more recent problem of the light

any ideas?

 

[ceh4702]

Hot Processor.
Bad Video Card.
Bad Video Drivers.
Bad Memory (or incompatible)
Overheated Chipset (or cooler wore out)
Program with a Memory Leak???
Update Active X.
Bad Motherboard.

Give your full rig stats and OS stats and someone may have a suggestion. Your motherboard could just be a lemon. I had a motherboard from FIC that did similar things and I replaced it with an ASUS motherobard and it ran fine after that. It can cost you to save money or less expensive parts.

If you do not like my post feel free to point out your opinion or my errors.

 

[cheerioboy]

thanks for replying, here are the specs of the computer:

ASUS A7V333 motherboard
Athlon 2100 cpu w/retail heatsink-fan
Samsung 512 mb pc2700 ddr
Western Digital 120 GB
ATI ALL-IN-WONDER Raedon 8500DV

its been running since late December, it was put together at my house and then transfered to my friends dorm since Early January and has just now been starting to have problems. Im definetly thinking that the first problem has to do with the cooling and I'm going to look into getting a new computer with at least 4 fans instead of just 1. But i still cant figure out the cold cathode light thing, its just odd.

 

[franklin97355]

Make sure the heatsink hasn't shifted and the heatsink pad hasn't been dislodged. Remove cold cathode light if it is causing a problem and forget it. You could worry yourself sick if you tried.

 

[cheerioboy]

yeah thats what im thinking...
heh

i'll definetly look into fixing the cpu heatsink and reapplying some artic silver. still think that a nice case with some fans would make me worry a little less. or do you think thats not the problem? hrm.

 

[BadBigBen]

Hi there,

it sounds to me like you might have a slight outlet problem... where the wall outlet is faulty or just can barely supply the power needed (amperage)...

it is known that older dorms which still have the cabling of the 50's or 60's produce problems when power sensitive devices (PC's and a few others) are hooked to these will have faults...

another thing to think about is that the cold cathodes use a power enhancing system that can draw a lot of power from the PSU that it doesn't have to spare...

ben

 

[cheerioboy]

Yeah, interesting point. we will soon find out if that was the case becuase my friend is going home today with her computer. she'll keep me updated on how the pc does and i'll be going to visit her soon if it starts having the problems again. thanks for all the support! its been really stressful trying to figure out whats going wrong.

 

[Dreamland]

cheerioboy -

In your first post, you wrote that your box had:
"Power Supply: Enermax 450watt EG365P_VE"
The EG365P_VE is the 350W model from Enermax, not the 450W model. Still sounds adequate, but consider just the 12v rail of your power supply - Enermax specs it out around 165W normal operating load. (another 185W for the 3.3v and 5v rails combined)

-The Athlon (assuming it's a Palimino) itself takes 90-100W (electrical watts, not the commonly quoted 'thermal' power).
-The hard drive, CDROM, mobo and fans might take 30-40W on top of that during normal operation. Maybe another 20 - 30W more when actually spinning up.
-Bump up the increase in power they all take the hotter they get.

*This* is the rail you're trying to run the lamp on.

Enermax (like most PS co's) spec out the rails individually but the loads on any one affects the others to a great degree. The closer you get to the spec'd rating on any one rail, the weaker and dirtier (ripples instead of stable voltage) the power becomes overall. In addition, the hotter your power supply becomes, the less ability it has to hold a stable supply of adequate voltage on the individual rails.

You're probably not to the point where your PS hits overload and shuts the box down, but one of the rails are probably loaded close to the borderline and the 'normal' ripple is now fatal. You can't see this with the normal voltage-monitoring s/w - you would need an o-scope - but keep reading.

The fan you initially mentioned cooled things down, but you were probably not having *that* serious a thermal problem with any one component. I would guess that the overall effect (cooling everything) alleviated your borderline power problem slightly - but just enough to matter.

Now consider BigBadBen's comment about the low-bid thirty+ year old dorm wiring. You're probably not *really* getting full power into the supply to begin with. And let me guess... end of April. Did they finally turn on the AC or has everyone started using window fans instead? Less/dirtier power coming in to begin with. And, hey... where did you plug *your* fan in?

Um, what question was I answering anyway? Oh.. cold-cathode tubes. Verrry little load (<65 mA off the 12v rail, I think) but that's *after* they've started. There's a significant initial surge when they fire up AND their little converters have cheap or non-existant filtering - they cause yet more ripple/noise in the 12v rail (same one your CPU uses). None of this is generally a problem at all if the power is adequate but likely enough to tip the scales in borderline cases.

Easy way to this? Temporarily unplug a few non-critical 12v devices like the CDROM and/or case fan (assuming you still have the cover off & external fan) see if it runs for a period of time both with the light on or when turning the light on/off. If it does, hit the nearest plasma donor center and then on to eBay for the bigger/quieter power supply.

If you have to go this route, remember that the more headroom (extra capacity) your power supply has, the better it can filter and hold all the rails at the right voltage. It will also have more ability to handle lower or dirtier wall power. *Too* much extra is just a waste of money and probably noisy as well. One around 450W for this setup is plenty. Look for deals on the common Antec or Enermax. Avoid &quot;bargain&quot; brands or the noisy huge fan- or 3-fan models (unnecessary).

 

[cheerioboy]

now when the power ripples... what exactly does that do to the other parts of the computer? the motherboard is set to automatically reboot after getting shut off. Usually theres a hard-drive error shown in the boot. or sometimes it says that the cpu tried to overclock but has failed. Do those sound like things that would happen when the power ripples?

this is very interesting. Im learning something

 

[BadBigBen]

Dreamland,

thanx you've put it in a more technical language and to be honest I've learned a bit myself...

cheerioboy,

as far as I am informed, when the power ripples, it will not shutdown the system, ergo the automatic reboot will not come into effect, which leads to lockups in the system...

*I hope I got this correct*

Ben

PS. cheerioboy keep us posted...

 

[Smoker]

This problem happened to me twice. The first time it happened it was a bad memory stick. The second time it happened it was an over heating processor.

Just adding my two cents =)

 

[cheerioboy]

interesting.. well the pc is back on at home. On first boot (OS: windows XP) got into the OS and then a window for sending an error to microsoft popped up. Popped up again after restarting. Then she just deleted the file and so far its been working fine. :shrug: hrm... i guess its only been half a day, need to give it more time. I might also ask her to flip the light and see if it still shuts down and reboots.

thanks for all the comments ^_^

 

[cheerioboy]

OK i talked to her today and had to turn the light on and off. It worked FINE. so far no problems at all. She wants to upgrade so that she'll have a better time when we got back to school.

She really wants a new case because the one now is flimsy and has 1 fan spot. Also im thinking from all this that she needs a better PSU.. 400watt. how does that sound?

 

[cheerioboy]

*UPDATE!* ok the computer has crashed again. this time finding the computer in boot saying &quot;disk boot failure&quot; Being rebooted and working fine. Light can still be turned on and off.

Probe software says the processor is running at 68C

She says the case feels warm... so im thinking its definetly a heat issue. shes going to open the side of the case like before and put a fan on it.

 

[Dreamland]

cheerioboy: &quot;...now when the power ripples... what exactly does that do to the other parts of the computer?&quot;

The various components expect fairly smooth, even power at +5vdc, +12vdc or whatever within certain limits. When the PSU is undersupplied or overloaded (or both) the power starts fluctuating - say a half-volt or so - above and below the 5v or 12v level. If you 'looked' at it on a 'scope, it would still average around the right level, but would appear to have ripples. The components (chips on the mobo or cards) might lock up, send out erroneous signals, reset themselves or just generally *freak out*. I believe that's the correct technical term.

&quot;...the motherboard is set to automatically reboot after getting shut off. Usually theres a hard-drive error shown in the boot. or sometimes it says that the cpu tried to overclock but has failed. Do those sound like things that would happen when the power ripples?&quot;

Yes, or video problems you mentioned before. All fall under the general behavior of one component freaking out while the rest churn away as usual. As BadBigBen said, it *generally* will not cause the mobo to reset. A gross power problem - power surge, spike, droupout - generally will force a reset. Borderline noisy power (ripples) may affect some sensitive components while most others deal with it fine and think nothing's wrong.

Your HD controller chip might 'forget' a drive is attached. Your CPU might lock or your RAM may be partially erased. The chip that controls the PCI bus may go brain dead. The clock chip might add or subtract a few clock pulses (&quot;CPU overclock&quot. No particular behavior because you never know what component is the most vulnerable at any instant to a little bump or trough in voltage on it's power supply pin.

Smoker: noisy power on the 5v rail is the primary reason RAM fails on-board nowdays (aside from a static electricity zap). I don't mean just lock up, I mean *fry*. High-speed RAM is particularly sensitive to death by undervoltage and noisy 5v power. No idea if this is what happened in your case - I'm just making the observation that money spent on a decent PSU might end up saving $ on a replacement stick of 512mb PC2700 DDR or whatever.

And your overheating CPU is actually what we're talking about here. The ripple didn't cause your CPU to overheat - but a hot CPU draws much more power than a cool one. As it draws more power from the PSU, the PSU struggles to supply it and often ends up degrading both the voltage and filtering on that line. Either the CPU chokes in response to the noisy power, or another chip locks up first. Depends on dozens of things, though. Point is, noisy power on your mobo can cause lots of wacky behavior well before a power supply will trip.

cheerioboy: sounds like better power at her house (either in quantity or quality). Gives the PSU a little more reserve to do it's job. If it is a 12v rail issue, you should be able to tell by hooking up two or three more case fans. They run off of the 12v rail and will each draw a few watts. Making the HD and/or CDROM do anything at the same time will add stress, too. Play a music CD and do a defrag or backup at the same time. If you have 12v issues, it should show up.

As far as the new PSU - you're borderline now so anything higher than the 365 has a better chance of delivering clean power. Check out this Tom's hardware review (Oct '02) for some of the known PSU issues:

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20021021/index.html

And wouldn't you know: the best power supplies are also the most expensive and sold in the ugliest cases (if at all). The best looking cases often have bogus-rated no-name power supplies. *sigh*

Just out of curiosity, I looked up the EG465P on eBay. It's the now out-of-production next higher rated supply that Enermax made in the same line your EG365P came from. Check out this box that came up:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2727548088&category=38114

Man... I just about blew a lung reading his description! Seriously goofy, but if I had a spare four grand... well, maybe not. The soft-porn anime girl wouldn't go over too well at the office. Made my day. BTW, he's using a EG465P in it - that's why it came up.

 

[cheerioboy]

Anothig thing to point out that i found out. She has her computer hooked up at home through two power strips. One in the wall, then the other hooked into that one. I had to move her computers power to the one closest to the wall. Could the power strip have anything to do with the trouble getting the power? I think she has a pretty dinky one that doesn't have a surge protector or any of that.

just an idea.

 

[Dreamland]

It certainly could, but I thought it was working OK at her house...? Does she do the same thing at the dorm?

At any rate, anything between the wall and computer will degrade the voltage a bit. The plug/socket is where most of the voltage drop occurs, so there's at least four: wall-strip1, strip1-strip2, strip2-PSU cord and finally the PSU cord to the back of the PSU itself. This isn't counting the possibility of poor connections inside the power strips or cheap, thin wires in the cords surrounded with lots of plastic to make it 'seem' better.

Generally speaking, this isn't that big of a deal. Most people don't have 'perfect' power levels at the socket anyway, and it will vary throughout the day. PSU manufacturers take this into account to some degree when they build supplies. If your PSU was more than adequate, a few power strips probably won't have much of an effect. If your PSU is already struggling to maintain voltage inside your case, then a few power strips might be enough to push it over the edge. All power supplies degrade slowly over time as well. Yours would likely not be able to hold the load it could when it was new.

Surge protection is nice, but most people don't have a problem without it. If you have an old power strip where the on-off light sort of blinks and flashes, it's telling you that the surge protection component is worn out. Most people don't know that but their computers continue to run just fine. They only protect against huge surges, like lightening strikes on a nearby power line. It won't do anything to 'clean' the normal noisy power coming in - you have to buy much more expensive UPS or power conditioners to do that job, not $25 surge supressors.

A decent power supply will usually have surge protection built in anyway - your EnerMax does. It's done with a single, relatively low-priced electronic component that looks like a capacitor - nothing elaborate. I wouldn't worry too much about lack of a surge supressor unless your really paranoid about lightening or protecting other sensitive electronics. It's only last resort protection and quite often does NOT work against lightening strikes, contrary to the bajillion joule rating hyped by the manufacturers. Might as well get it if you need a strip anyway, but don't loose sleep over it if you don't have one.

 

[cheerioboy]

well now that it seems that the computer is also failing at home.. im starting to rule out the problem for the power from the outlet being a problem. Still stumped. Im having it taken into a repair shot for troubleshooting since i dont have extra parts to check this. I'll update on what happens after that.

 

[7up1n3]

Did you find a solution to the problem?

If not, make sure you check the PSU -> motherboard connector to make sure the connector hasn't fried. I've seen this same behavior and the issue was a faulty PSU where the +5VDC wires shorted. Quality of PSU wasn't the issue as it was an Antec TruPower 550W. Sometimes these things simply happen.

 

[cheerioboy]

ah, I’ll just say what happened. Ended up replacing the case, power supply, processor and heatsink. I think the main problem was that the retail fan that came with the Athlon processor was used and that the case didn't circulate the air very well. I thought that maybe the processor had taken damage; I have yet to try it out again with a better heatsink/fan. After all the upgrades the computer has been running fine.

Thanks to everyone to troubleshooting and helping me out when it was all hectic.