Computer Science Education 1

[CajunCenturion]

Computer science fighting for time

Good Luck
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[lionelhill]

Yup, it's worrying. But frankly, I think IT is its own worst enemy.

Like most of my generation, I learnt most of my programing at home, using a computer bought with a summer's fruit picking money. It came with a comprehensive manual and a built in language. At the time, the best games available were little square blobs that moved around going "beep". A youngster like me could relatively quickly learn to write something worthwhile (I'm stressing games because they're what teenagers are likely to find interesting).

Nowadays if you buy a PC you don't get anything with which you can do any programing.

In fact my local computing superstore does not sell a single compiler or language of any sort! (Yes, I know, you can get things via the internet, but people inevitably end up downloading a free C with bad libraries and worse documentation, and then they find it really is too difficult.)

It's hardly going to encourage people to learn, is it?

Also, if you want to entertain yourself by writing a game, you're competing with top-notch realistic graphics created by very skilled teams. The incentive is gone.

Worst of all, some of those who can use IT seem to stress unnecessarily how difficult it is. Recently my wife bought me a book of Sudoku puzzles, where the first few pages are a glowing eulogy about the author's huge experience in expert system programing, and the sheer genius of his AI-enabled super-sophisticated puzzle creation engine. I mean, really! It's a Sudoku puzzle handling 81 little numbers. It took me less than an hour to write a sudoku solving algorithm, and another ten minutes to make it generate new puzzles, and I'm a "technical user" with no noticeable programing skills. This sort of own-trumpet-blowing doesn't encourage a professional attitude.

 

[sirslacker]

I find interesting the attitude of company executives. They say they have to go overseas to get labor and are clamoring for more IT coursework. Why would a student go into IT when he sees his parents with degrees in computer science being downsized? American companies, in a race to the bottom, have created this problem.
Reading and writing should take priority over computer training. I work with many people who are experts in technology yet are unable to express themselves clearly in a verbal or written form.
More troubling is the current shortage of skilled labor in the trades. Many schools are cutting traditional trade training for high tech careers, yet professions like plumbing and carpentry have better job security and tend to pay quite well in light of volitility in the IT job market.
The idea that we need to teach 10 years olds "computer skills" is ridiculous. Would we teach a 10 year old in 1977 COBOL because they "need to have computer skills for the future?" They should be taught critical thinking and be proficient in writing before they graduate.

 

[Dimandja]

The whole idea of "computer science" itself is overblown.

The best computer programmers I have ever encountered were trained scientists in other disciplines. No amount of programming skills will suffice, when one does not have a clue what the application is all about.

Computers are a tool. In other to use them properly, one needs to know their craft first. Herding students through computer programming classes, while neglecting other disciplines, is like teaching one how to hammer in a nail while carpentry itself is ignored.

There are way too many programmers in the US who cannot write nor read anything. They have no other skills but programming. They cannot compete with programmers who have other degrees besides programming.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Programming is but a small part of Computer Science, in fact, it's the easy part. I don't find the idea of computer science being overblown; I find the idea that computer science equates to programming is overly simplistic.

Whereas a programming class may be a good electives in high school, computer science does not belong at the high school level. Further, programming should always take a back seat to basic english and math classes.

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[Dimandja]

>Programming is but a small part of Computer Science...

Of course. I was talking about the programming aspect. Strictly programming schools are everywhere.

 

[jsteph]

Meanwhile, technology executives have told Congress they are increasingly relying on employees from overseas and clamoring for more U.S. graduates with stronger science skills.

This is misleading. I think 'relying' isn't accurate, it's more like 'favoring because they're cheaper'.
--Jim

 

[Dimandja]

Meanwhile, technology executives have told Congress they are increasingly relying on employees from overseas and clamoring for more U.S. graduates with stronger science skills.

The emphasis should be on more U.S. graduates with stronger science skills. Even at the same salary, they may well prove to be quite qualified. A tough competition. Schools in Asia and Europe are a lot more competitive and comprehensive than those in the US, in general.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Schools in Asia and Europe are a lot more competitive and comprehensive than those in the US, in general.

There are lots of evaluation methodologies, and I'm sure that on some scales that's true. To be specific, which metrics are using for that claim, and do you have any references?

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[chiph]

It's not neccessarily stronger science skills, but critical thinking skills. I see a lot of people (both in and out of the computer science area) who fail to connect the dots, so to speak.

Chip H.


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[Glenn9999]

Yeah, it's very hard to be interested in putting your stakes in Computer Science or Computer Information Systems when you see companies firing domestic staffs en-masse in favor of foreign labor. The only motivator seems to be cost. Then they have the nerve to put out complaints like this one, especially when the argument could be made that there is little to no market for those who can work in IT in the United States.

My universal tip to any high schooler or college type (and the one I would tell myself back then if I could): concentrate on something that can't be shipped overseas. It's rough when you get stabbed in the back and have no recourse to do anything else.

 

[Glenn9999]

and on the the topic of education, that is an issue, but created by the companies. All too often in the name of costs, they pull uninitiated people off the streets, put them in six week "boot camps" then expect them to generate top flight quality code. Just doesn't work that way.

To get lower costs, you lose quality. I definitely believe that.

To wit, the perfect example is the program design and maintenance aspect of computer science. You will find so many people that will utterly fail on that category out in the work force its amazing. I've seen people that will purposefully find the most convoluted solution to a problem that would make Rube Goldberg (*) proud. Then I've seen those who might make good solutions, but make their source messed up you can't understand it at all. Of course, there's those that have no conception of how computers operate that will come up with solutions but those solutions are so inefficient it's unreal (**).

http://www.rube-goldberg.com/html/contest.htm

* The Rube Goldberg Machine Contest brings the ideas of Pulitzer Prize-winning artist Rube Goldberg's "Invention" cartoons to life. Named after, and inspired by the cartoonist Reuben Lucius Goldberg, this Olympics of Complexity is designed to pull students away from conventional problem-solving and push them into the endless chaos of imagination and intuitive thought. To be specific, groups are given an elementary challenge: something as simple as peeling an apple, sharpening a pencil, or putting toothpaste on a toothbrush. But instead of just "solving" the problem, students have to make the solution as complicated and as convoluted as possible. In fact, the more steps - there's a minimum of twenty - the better the Rube Goldberg Machine. And what a machine! An assemblage of ordinary objects, mechanical gadgets, and the oddest odds and ends are linked together and somehow get to the desired goal.

** We had a thread in a programming forum on here once about this. A simple problem was presented that had many solutions. Most programmers in the market would go for some of the worst solutions possible for the problem because of either indoctrination, pure ignorance, or their minds being stuck into one route for the solution. Also I participated in a class once that had a programming question like that. 95% of the class went for a solution that involved 366+ conditional statements over a table lookup. It's scary how unknowledgable a lot of the work force seems to be.

 

[langleymass]

My feelings are mixed. For starters, the USA does easily have the worst school system in the "modern world." The fact that this is only now catching up with us is due to the sheer love of learning that many talented people have. The best and brightest are overcoming the system, but the B and C students are falling way behind their counterparts in other countries.

High-tech executives like Bill Gates have publicly and proudly declared that they don't want to hire Americans. The Americans are listening to them and finding better pay and conditions elsewhere. Who can blame them?

Companies in foreign countries actually do want to hire their own citizens. They get experience there, and then they come to the USA. I seriously doubt that Americans will be able to get the same jobs in these countries.

We are witnessing an industry committing suicide, thanks mainly to its "leadership." It's interesting and educational to watch it happen. It is also a tremendous tragedy and a terrible waste. Nobody is winning from this.

 

[kHz]

I do not have a link to the article, however, research indicated that conservatively, industry is spending $250 million per year on remedial writing for employees.

It all begins at home. Everyone can blame the school system but it is a product of what people want. Too many parents do sue a school district if little johnny fails. Even if that failure was caused by his refusal to do the work required for passing the class.

In the Reagan era there was thought of eliminating the US Dept of Education so it could be handed back to the state and local level. The Bush administration has expanded the Dept of Education 40% and has mandated the "No Child Left Behind" act. As, George Will stated in a column, it would be easier to grow lobsters on trees. The State of Utah is fighting NCLB.

At its core it is intended to close the gap between different groups of students. This is good in theory, but is putting the emphasis on teachers and schools instead of the home and parents. More testing, more resources, more money, but none of that will help without parental involvement. No aggregate scores either. It is broken out census style, too. The city I live in is trying to absorb other cities school districts in the area and eveyone believes it is because of money. The money may be a part of their "empire building," but I believe it is because of the NCLB. The suburban schools all excel academically and have higher scores than the urban schools. This will give the school district a place to move the students who are not excelling at their urban school; they will be moved to the suburban school and magically it will be believed they will begin achieving high scores.

The per pupil amount is considerably higher than it ever has been and continues to increase, all with lower expectations and achievements. The mantra is always, 'it's for the children.' Give me a break. Dumping more money into bottomless pit won't solve the problems with the schools. It begins at home.

But all home is concerned about is the reality shows and other mindless television. A study was recently completed that concluded those children who watch more television per day have lower achievement than those children whose television viewing is limited. But, I guess, "I want to be a Hilton" is more entertaining than reading a book or drawing or swimming or any other numerous creative activities.

My rants on education and the problems at the core.

 

[jrbarnett]

Nowadays if you buy a PC you don't get anything with which you can do any programing.

-What about VBScript/JScript for operating system scripting or traditional batch files; HTML/Javascript for web pages in Internet Explorer?
Granted these are not programming languages in the traditional sense of the word, but they help instill logic, which is the one thing that any sort of programming will help teach.

I started out doing BBC Basic programming and a few DOS batch files. I'm now my office's expert on all things along OS scripting and Access/VBA/SQL Server/Oracle.

John

 

[chiph]

Nowadays if you buy a PC you don't get anything with which you can do any programing.

Maybe someone can convince Dell to put a link to SourceForge on the favorites menu of the PCs they sell?

Chip H.


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[lionelhill]

jrbarnett!

I rest my case. If the only offerings available are operating system scripting and html, both of which are highly targetted to specific tasks, it's fairly obvious why the world is short on people who can carry out (for example) basic numerical analysis or modelling of a physical system. You could do real and fun things with GWbasic. And Qbasic let you model banana-chucking monkeys.

But the first computer software I ever saw running was a gravitational orbit simulator, plotting a simple satelite moving round a planet (probably an "X" orbiting an "O"; the computer concerned was in a plywood box and probably had several K of memory and a processor running at speeds of up to a MHz). The program had meaning, and a little touch of physics and maths. All I wanted to write was a bat-and-ball tennis game. Neither fits into operating system scripting or html particularly well.

chiph,

internet links are all very well, but (1) many parents are distinctly concerned about their offspring downloading software from the internet, (2) lots of people still use impossibly slow 64K modems, and (3) free download stuff often comes with at best unstructured help, much of which won't work on the system you happen to have.

 

[langleymass]

There is definitely some truth that today's systems do not come with the ability to program built-in. I think that is a shame.

When I first got a Commodore 64, that was the very first thing I wanted to do with it--program. In the summer of 1984, I saw the movie _Ghostbusters_. As I left the theater, I thought: "Hey, let's make a video game out of this." I soon found that someone else had already beaten me to that.

To its credit, Linux generally does come with the ability to program. Windows does not at all. That is a loss.

 

[chiph]

(1) many parents are distinctly concerned about their offspring downloading software from the internet

If they want their kid to learn how to program, they're going to have to give him the ability to download stuff. Often, the internet is the only place to go for the online help and support.

(2) lots of people still use impossibly slow 64K modems

When I started off in programming I had a 300 baud modem. You just need some patience. ;-)

(3) free download stuff often comes with at best unstructured help, much of which won't work on the system you happen to have.

I'm not saying there isn't a learning curve. On modern PCs, it's pretty steep, but creating a Brick-Out or Pong type game is very doable.

Chip H.

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[lionelhill]

Funny you mentioned Brick-Out. My first copy of Turbo pascal, legal and paid-for, came with Brick-Out as an example program. In fact without Brickout to look at, I'd probably never have worked out how to use pascal.

I can't understand the resistance to the idea of selling a PC with a language of some sort preloaded and ready to go. It's not a new idea. I'd guess that huge numbers of established IT people here (obviously including langleymass!) had this when they were younger, and really appreciated it. Why are we so inclined to deny this to the newer generations? It wouldn't even reduce sales of compilers; give people a cheap-and-cheerful easy compiler, and they'll know how to move on to a more professional paid-for version.