Clean Install

[Razorback]

Ok I'm rusty and need a refresher course. Alienware PC with Me, I want to install 2k. Can someone give me a step by step proces to do this? I will be installing from the Win CD. All data has been backed up and the PC meets all HCL. Thanks in Advance!!

 

[wolluf]

If you're doing a clean install (best option) - ie, wiping disk clean, then here's an outline:-

1. Boot from 2k Cd (may need to change bios settings to boot from CD first).

2. Take the new install option (if using an upgrade CD you'll need a qualifying previous windows install CD to show to the install), and when it gets to bit where it asks location of install, if the ME partition still there, highlight it and hit D key to delete it (and answer warning prompts so it is deleted). Then select unpartitioned space and C key to create your 2k install partition. Choose FAT32 or NTFS as preferred for filestore and let install continue.

3. After it reboots, answer questions as required & supply key when asked. After 50-60 minutes, all being well, you'll be up and running. Apply service pack (if required) and visit windows update (if required) for latest patches etc.

 

[Razorback]

Ok how do I know if the PC will boot to the CD drive? Can I change the order and then restart to see or is there a different way? Also I will be using partition magic to setup the partition I would like to keep the OS on 1 partition and data/programs on another is this a good idea? Thanks for the quick response I love this site!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wolluf]

OK - if you want to keep ME, I would use partition magic to shrink the ME partition (assuming you need to make space for 2k) - but don't create partition for 2k with it (don't know what version you have but many reports of problems installing windows - particularly nt/2k/xp - on partitions created by PM7 or earlier (PM8 may be ok - I haven't tried/heard). Once this is done, you can start the 2k install off from within ME (to save you changing bios settings - btw, yes, just change settings and reboot to see if it works - sometimes an install cd won't boot) if you want. Choose clean install and that you want to specify where to install 2k. It will copy some files, then reboot. when it gets to 'where to install' bit, select the unpartitioned space you created with PM - or the partition you created with PM if you go that route to install into. Should now continue as described before - except you will now have a dual boot ME/2k set up.

PS. The 2 operating systems have one (2k) boot sector on the C: (ME) drive/partition. So, if you want to remove ME later, be careful as just formatting partition will stop 2k booting. Insurance in case you accidently do something like this - create 2k boot floppy (once its installed). Copy ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini from root of c: to a newly formatted floppy. This will boot 2k even if boot sector on hard drive destroyed.

 

[bloatME]

To "wolluf" - Thanks for the tip on creating a "2k boot floppy" - I'm also new to 2k, having stuck with 98se until it "ran out of horsepower" for digital-audio processing.

To "wolluf" & "Razorback" -

I'm still "testing" various 2kpro (clean install) setup configs, and have really gotten interested in the "answer file" approach (using "unattend.txt&quot, to try and CONTROL exactly WHICH COMPONENTS actually DO get installed by "setup."

I've successfully been able to eliminate all the "Games" (Pinball, et al), (and it's sure nice NOT to have to enter that 25-digit CD key everytime!), but I would like to be able to cut "Telnet" & "Fax" and many other "add-ons" that I'll never use to render digital audio. It would be nice to have a "comprehensive" list of all available component "switches" - albeit, the "unattend.doc" (w2k CD: "Support" folder, "DEPLOY.CAB&quot has an awful lot of them.

Using PartitionMagic 5.0 (yes, version FIVE!) from win98se, I have had NO PROBLEM creating NTFS & FAT32 partitions for subsequent win2k clean installs; just mark the newly created partition "active", and "hide" everything else. Use the four "setup floppies" if you don't want to (or can't) boot from the w2k CD. Tell "setup" to leave the existing partitions alone (also a nice "answer file" option-switch). The result is a w2k partition that starts up and acts like it's the only OS on the HD. . .

I use (prefer) "BootMagic" (installed on win98se partition, and provided by "PartitionMagic&quot to select an OS at startup. By using a "third-party" utility for "multi-boot" control, you avoid "mixing" OS components; leaving you free to re-format or re-size *ANY* other partitions on the HD.

HOWEVER: I WILL make & try-out that 2k boot-floppy! ;-)

 

[wolluf]

Bloatme,

Thanks for the info. I also use a third party boot manager (

http://www.boot-us.com)

to keep o/s independent. My comment regarding partition magic was from seeing many posts on various forums describing problems with it - I've never used it myself to create a partition to install into. I was interested in your answer file experience - I've always avoided them as gained impression they are complicated to use (and my brain isn't what it was!). Do you know if you can omit the 'hidden from uninstall' options (ie, the ones with 'hide' entries in sysoc.inf)?

 

[bloatME]

Wolluf,

I just found this forum TODAY ! [recommended by Fred Langa, in his "LangaList" Newsletter; see

http://www.langa.com

to subscribe - a GREAT newsletter! IMHO. (Mr. Langa used to be a "big" part of the venerable "WinMag&quot].

Therefore, I haven't even gone thru all of the "topics" here for w2k, yet!

HOWEVER: It sounds, like YOU (may) have. . .and did not see anything dealing with this admittedly "very complicated" install procedure; aka: the w2k "unattended installation."

From my understanding, and a lot of reading, it appears to be a procedure designed primarily for OEMs and System Admins who wish to install w2k on many, many machines without having to INDIVIDUALLY configure them. (There are also deployment schemes to even accomplish "remote" installations, which doesn't interest me at all, since my rigs are right here in one room!)

HOWEVER, upon closer scrutiny, it appears that it is ONLY with the use of this "technique" (i.e.: "unattended install&quot that one can gain access to an ability to "set options" for the subsequent installation that simply are NOT available ANY OTHER WAY - - - The "standard" running of "setup" doesn't show you the many "choices" that are, indeed, possible; and it doesn't matter "how" you do it: from within an OS such as win98/ME using the run dialogue box or a dos prompt for "winnt32.exe" (which ALWAYS seems to yield a "Dual-boot" edition of w2k), or whether you go thru the four "setup floppies"/CD-ROM approach (which, incidently, DOES at least result in what I would consider a true "clean" install, that is: all the w2k "pieces" are on one partition). . .

As far as answering your Q about

"if you can omit the 'hidden from uninstall' options (ie, the ones with 'hide' entries in sysoc.inf)?"

I'm not familiar with your terms; what does "hidden from uninstall" mean? There are certain components (Bill would have you call them "features" -lol!) that MS has "integrated" so thoroughly into the OS that there are no "standard" choices possible to NOT have them "install" when you install the OS (Internet Explorer, for example); all you can do is ignore them (i.e.: delete the shortcuts; clean-out your start menu; use a third-party app like "Netscape"; etc.) - it isn't that they have been "hidden from uninstall" - it's that they've been so "scrambled" into the OS to the point that you need to do "radical surgery" to be rid of them ! [If you're into trying such *major* alterations of Win98/ME, check out www.litepc.com]

I'll have to locate and examine this "sysoc.inf" - Am I correct in assuming this file is in the "i386" install/distribution folder ?

In the mean time, since I'm extremely interested in getting at the "horsepower" w2k has to offer (and NOT in using it to run a bank or insurance company), PERHAPS A SEPARATE "THREAD" for information/experiences regarding the use of w2k "ANSWER FILES/UNATTENDED INSTALLS" might be in order ? ? ?

 

[bloatME]

To "Razorback" -

Sorry if we seem to be ignoring you; maybe this will help:
You wrote:

"Also I will be using partition magic to setup the partition I would like to keep the OS on 1 partition and data/programs on another is this a good idea?"

My response is a resounding "YES" - But, with a few caveats: realize that it will take some time for you to "get used to it." Also, in my experience, it has NOT been wise (for me, anyway) to attempt to "alter" the "default" or suggested "locations" during an application (i.e.: "program&quot install by trying to "get fancy" by putting them on a partition different from the OS (or even in a different or "re-named" folder within the OS partition); any future "updates", "patches", or "upgrades" for that application will expect to find the app's components exactly where the "programmers" originally planned for them to be, not where you may have put them (even though "setup dialogues" frequently give you opportunities to "pick your own" locations, or "name your own" files) -AND/OR- YOU MUST BE responsible for logging ("writing everything down" during the install) or remembering exactly WHAT and WHERE you chose to name and put things. [I find Life with computers is tough enough. This is just my own experience; others may disagree.] Consequently, I recommend allowing any app's "setup" to install WHERE it suggests. Usually, this will be on the OS partition (i.e.: the "C:\" drive). Most complicated apps are going to be writing to your OS's registry (on the OS partition) during the apps setup anyhow. Consequently, if you ever want to have "a prayer" of a hope to completely "un-install" that particular app, it's best if ALL its components are on the same partition as the OS in which it was originally installed - - - FOR INSTANCE: (SUPREME NIGHTMARE) Say, you install an app and choose to put its files on another partition; if *ANYTHING* on the HD changes (i.e.: you later create/add, re-size, merge, delete, or *do* just about anything to any partition on that HD), the "un-install" files generated during the app's install (which *SHOULD* describe all of the installed component locations - ) WILL BE OBSOLETE AND USELESS if you ever should need to "un-install" that app.

NOW: CHOOSING *WHICH* OF THE APP'S "COMPONENTS" YOU WANT TO HAVE INSTALLED, OR EXACTLY *WHICH* "OPTIONS" YOU WANT TO HAVE ACTIVATED DURING THE INSTALL - THAT IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY, AND IS THE BIG REASON FOR MY INTEREST SHOWN IN MY PREVIOUS POST.

I recommend saving your "data" files (i.e., the files you generate from your installed apps; .txt, .doc, .wav, mp3, etc.) on "Logical" partitions, and NOT on your OS (generally "C:\&quot partition. Thus, if the OS gets "pasted" or even replaced (as you're trying to do NOW with your w2k install), most likely you'll still be able to acess the part of your computer that is probably the MOST personal to you anyway. . .
_____________________________________
Since you already have PartitionMagic, please read its manual and, especially, the "help" files from within the app itself. You will learn about the different file systems (i.e.: FAT, FAT32, NTFS, HPFS, etc., etc., etc.); that you may have up to FOUR "Primary" partitions per HD, but that the fourth partition can be created as (or converted to) what's called an "Extended" partition, within which you may then create as many "Logical" partitions as there are remaining letters in the alphabet!
_____________________________________
As far as a "step by step process" goes that you requested - if you just want the "easiest" install, and can't boot (or don't want to) from your CD-ROM drive, simply make the 4 (yup, that's "four&quot "setup" floppies, as described in "Release Notes for Setup, Part 2, Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional" (aka: "PRO2.TXT&quot - found on your w2k CD in the "SETUPTXT" folder - where it states:
======================================================================
Creating Setup Startup Disks
======================================================================
If you don't have the Setup startup disks, you can create them. The
startup disks are used to start Setup if you can't start Setup from
your hard drive.

Note: Setup startup disks contain different information than the
Emergency Repair Disk.

To create Setup startup disks
1. Insert a blank, formatted disk into the floppy disk drive, and
insert the Windows 2000 Professional CD into the
CD-ROM drive.

You need four blank, 1.44 MB formatted 3.5-inch
disks. Label them "Setup Disk 1," "Setup Disk 2," and so on.

2. Click Start, and then click Run.
3. At the prompt, type the following command, replacing d with the
letter of your CD-ROM drive and a with the letter of your
floppy disk drive.

d:\bootdisk\Makeboot.exe a:

4. Follow the instructions that appear.

Good Luck to you !

 

[Razorback]

Ok this is what I did. Created a new partition with PM 8.0 then the program restarted the Pc but I keep getting this error Invalid System Disc Replace the disk and hit enter to continue. the 2k cd is in the drive but for some reason it will not boot to the disc and I can't get back to ME. I'm stuck please help this is a Alienware Area 51 PC

 

[wolluf]

Razorback,

Can you boot the PC from a winme or 98 boot floppy? If so, can you access the ME partition? (also, have you PM8 rescue disks - because they should give you access to the partitions and hopefully give you some status info). You may need to write a new master boot record (fdisk /mbr from winme/98 boot floppy).

 

[Razorback]

No I cannot it does not have a floopy drive and I do not have the PM8 rescue disk. So what is next for me should I call Alienware and see why the PC gives the error that I mentioned above? Thanks for the continued help.

 

[wolluf]

Yes, I would call Alienware, though they may not want to help given the steps you've taken. They should have an idea of the PC setup - and how to approach access to it with no floppy.

I suspect PM has done something to the master boot record/partition table that's affected the drive's ability to boot from.

Are you able to boot from win2k install CD? If you are, you could let it get as far as the 'where to install' bit, and see what it displays (ie, if it can read the drive and see your ME and new partition).

 

[bloatME]

TO ALL:

IMHO > NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE EVER TRIES TO TELL YOU:

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, (and I mean "NEVER&quot BUY A PC
WITHOUT A "FLOPPY" DRIVE ! ! !

[unless you plan to install one yourself; it's easy to do;
and they're cheap - $9.99; Mitsumi, on sale]

Ya just gotta have one, no matter how infrequently you'll actually need to use it.
________________________
TO "Razorback" -

Kindly inform us as to EXACTLY how the "Alienware" Support Staff responds to you.
________________________
(This ought to be rather entertaining. . .)

 

[bloatME]

TO "Razorback" -

On a more SERIOUS (and, hopefully, more HELPFUL) note . . .

In your original post, you wrote:
_____________________________
"Ok I'm rusty and need a refresher course. Alienware PC with Me, I want to install 2k. Can someone give me a step by step proces to do this? I will be installing from the Win CD. All data has been backed up and the PC meets all HCL. Thanks in Advance!!"
_____________________________ . . . O.K. . .
EXACTLY *HOW* did you "back up" all data ? *WHERE* did you put it ? (And, for God sakes: *WHAT* do you mean by "data" - the OS, or a bunch of .txt or other files ?)

How many Hard Drives (physical HDs, not partitions) are in this "Alien-box" ?

And how many partitions did you have, before the current problem ?

[Without access to any OS, a computer is a box of junk.]

_____________________________

When you used Partition Magic, EXACTLY *HOW* did you use it ? IF, you used it to "Create a New Partition" then, maybe, all is not lost (IF you didn't use it to create a new partiton on top of your only OS partition); even so, you will still need to somehow be able to make the old "C:\" partition (where you must have installed Partition Magic) "Active" again, in order for it to boot-up (that's what the Partition Magic "Emergency Floppies" allow you to do; if you had them; if you had a drive to put them in. . .).

I'm "hoping" (for your sake) that Partition Magic may have *only* "Created" a new partition in space that was previously "un-allocated," and that afterward you then simply allowed the new partition to be made "active" by Partition Magic - which means that on re-boot, that's the partition where the box's BIOS will expect to find an operating system - of course, since this partition was just created, it won't find one; IT'S an EMPTY partition, waiting for "your next step" which would be to begin the install setup of an OS.

(i.e.: that's why the BIOS is telling you "Invalid System Disc" - it didn't find any OPERATING SYSTEM to turn control over to).

WITHOUT KNOWING "Alienware" hardware specifics (or, apparently, the "lack" thereof), I can only suggest (and hope) you can use some sort of a "Restore" disk that should have been supplied by "Alienware" - in order to get back to an OS (of any kind!) if one is still present.

If you're able to do that: DO NOT USE PARTITION MAGIC or any other "partitioning" tool (including the w2k console tools) until you have READ and thoroughly understand what it really *means* to "partition/format" a hard drive !

(It's perhaps THE MOST serious and "un-recoverable" procedure you can ever engage in on a computer - just short of using a sledge-hammer on it !)

Sincerely: Good Luck to You !

 

[gamelin56]

If I was setting up a machine from scratch, I would put no O/S on C: Each O/S gets its own partition. All that's on C: are the boot files. I use a separate partition for apps, and when installing, accept the default install path, only changing the drive letter. I've never had any trouble. If you change not just the letter, but also the path, then you have to remember where the heck you installed it. By having the apps separate you can restore any given O/S to its partition and the apps are unaffected. You can also install to the same partition from different O/S's, avoiding duplication. Keeping each O/S on its own and minimizing its size speeds up imaging and restoring images. I create a shortcut to each app, patch or utility I install in a directory for each O/S and image I make. Example W2KV03 will contain shortcuts to all the changes to W2K since I burned the version 02 image of that partition. Everything gets its own partition. (Apps, office, swap files, temporary files, temporary internet files, downloads, install, backup, etc.)

 

[bloatME]

To "gamelin56" -

You wrote:

"If I was setting up a machine from scratch, I would put no O/S on C: Each O/S gets its own partition. All that's on C: are the boot files."

Kindly explain this in more detail; could you please "list" the files you do have on your "C:\" drive for someone who's never heard of such a thing, and who's always ready to learn about new and "interesting" approaches ?

Thanx, in advance.

 

[gamelin56]

To Bloatme,
I'll tell you how I've come to this recommendation. I've got WIN95 on C: , WINNNT on D: , WIN2K on E: , WINXP on F: , etc. I generally make images of each partition as soon as I've put a couple of hours into installing stuff, however I haven't made many changes to WIN95 for a long time, so its image is pretty old. I recently had a problem with WIN95 which tempted me to restore its image. Turned out to be a loose cable, so I didn't have to restore it. However if I had restored it I would have faced a little trouble, as it predates the WIN2K and WINXP installs. If I had restored it I would no longer be able to boot into WIN2K or WINXP as the boot files would no longer contain references to them. An ERD (emergency repair disk) from WINXP would have saved the problem, but where did I put it?

Now to get to your actual question. By choosing to install all the O/S's to other partitions all you end up with on C: are the MBR which is not actually a file you can see, and the files in the root. You don't actually choose which files go there, the different O/S's just leave their droppings. Which files will depend on which O/S's you have installed. You might be tempted to make C: teeny tiny as the files don't amount to a hill of beans, but sometimes installation programs or service packs put their temporary files there. C: on my machine is 509 MB with about 100 MB free if memory serves. As I said WIN95 is installed there. I am writing this elsewhere.

Hope that among all the ramblings something is useful.

 

[bloatME]

To "gamelin56" -

Very interesting. I've not heard of "different O/S's just leave their droppings" before.

If I wanted to "try" this on a fresh HD, what would be the procedure? (and may I include an NTFS partition for w2k?)

Thanx, in advance.

 

[gamelin56]

If you're going to multi boot different o/s's you start with the oldest first. But before that you have to decide how many partitions, and what they're going to be ie. FAT, FAT32, NTFS, etc. I like to be able to boot the hard drive to DOS, so any partitions you want it to see will have to be FAT or FAT32. I boot to DOS to launch partition magic or Norton Ghost. If your os is fried you can always boot to dos and restore an image. I store recent images on a partition which is accessible to dos. Which of the older versions of dos and windows you install will determine how much of the hard drive they will see. Any partitions you want to share with W95 or WIN98 will have to be FAT or FAT32. I haven't heard much good about WINME, so I don't recommend it. I suppose you could use just the DOS portion, but as I recall booting to DOS with WINME is not obvious.

Stick the NTFS partitions at the end of any drives, as DOS or WIN9X won't see any partitions on a given drive after the NTFS prtituons. If you're dealing with a big hard drive ( Bigger than 60GB ) don't use an overlay for compatability with the older o/s. Be satisfied with the old o/s only seeing part of the drive. WIN2K or XP will de-activate the overlay.

Once your partitions are ready to go, start installing. Boot to Dos from a floppy and do Sys a: c: or boot from a CDROM, and install WIN98 to D: when its finished install WIN2K to E: When you're finished you'll find there isn't much on C: You'll end up with a multi-boot menu to choose between WIN98 and WIN2K. In my case I use WIN95. When I boot to WIN95 I have a further menu which is controlled by MSDOS.SYS in the root of C: which allows me to boot to either WIN95 or DOS.

NB this is not going to be the most secure setup. Fine for a home computer or a locked down small office setup but no way you'll slide this past any security conscious IT DEPT.

 

[Razorback]

Bloatme-this is exactly what I did. Installed PartitionMagic then went and created a new partition. I used the left over space that it recommended except I changed the anount to the maximum space. Selected FAT32, it also asked me a question if a OS would be installed on this partition. Next it asked to make the partition active. Next I selected make changes or update changes something like that. It went to a DOS like screen and starting "moving" the data and creating the partition. After this it rebooted and thats were I'm at now. I will call Alienware today and see if they can help. I really appreciate your time and support..Thanks