I posed the question in the HP networking thread and so far, have not gotten a response. So basically, is anyone running a Call Manager installation on non-Cisco switching infrastructure? I am looking to redo our k-12 network and it's a toss up right now between HP Procurve and Cisco Catalyst switches. I do have thoughts about implementing a Call Manager istallation in about another year or two after I have my infrastructure in place first. The Procurve line just has such an appeal to it due to the lifetime NBD parts replacement warranty (so no need for contracts), and more economical pricing. I'm a Cisco guy by heart, but I'm trying to look at this from an unbiased perspective.
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Cisco CM on non Cisco switches 1
- Thread starter cajuntank
- Start date
Will the ProCurve switch give you everything a Cisco switch can? Inline power, 802.1q trunking, QOS, VLANS, and Security?
Given that you plan to install Call Manager in the future I would suggest that you go with a Cisco backbone. That way there is no finger pointing when problems occur later on.
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Tek-TIP Member 19,650
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Given that you plan to install Call Manager in the future I would suggest that you go with a Cisco backbone. That way there is no finger pointing when problems occur later on.
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Tek-TIP Member 19,650
- Thread starter
- #3
The Procurve does offer all of those options including some very cool additional options like virus threat management (licesed in the switch, so no additonal hardware or servers)and other functionality/management that you would have to pay quite a bit of money for to achieve from Cisco.
I have read studies that show the ability to run Call Manager, Avaya, as well as some others on HP Procurve technology so I'm just trying to get some insight from maybe someone who has this implemented in real world. I personally am looking at the HP as an alternative, but if someone has done the same with 3COM, Nortel, Extreme Networks, etc...I'd like to here about it.
I have read studies that show the ability to run Call Manager, Avaya, as well as some others on HP Procurve technology so I'm just trying to get some insight from maybe someone who has this implemented in real world. I personally am looking at the HP as an alternative, but if someone has done the same with 3COM, Nortel, Extreme Networks, etc...I'd like to here about it.
I understand and I have not installed anything other than Cisco switches with Call Manager... Good Luck!!!!
Daily Thought: Some people are like slinkies. Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when
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Daily Thought: Some people are like slinkies. Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when
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Tek-TIP Member 19,650
Since the Cisco IP phones use CDP to find out what VLAN to be on, and CDP is Cisco Proprietary, you will more than likely have to hard code the VLAN information in every IP phone you install with the HP switches. Also, you'll have to be sure to buy the latest Cisco IP phones as the original IP phones used a different power scheme. Cisco originally had their way of powering the phones but when the standard was written, the polarity was reversed.
- Thread starter
- #7
I did remember seeing a power spec difference between the older phones and the newer ones. I feel this will be a non-issue for me since it will be a year or two before I start looking at them.
I think "pndscm" is correct in that the switches do not support CDP... this was taken from HP's website
"Q: Why don't the Switches 5400zl and 3500yl support CDP?
ProCurve Networking Business recommends IEEE standards-based features for device discovery. To this end, the IEEE 802.1ab standard Link Layer Discovery Protocol (LLDP) is supported. It provides for device discovery for network management platforms and switch neighbor discovery."
I am going to call into HP and get some more info.
I think "pndscm" is correct in that the switches do not support CDP... this was taken from HP's website
"Q: Why don't the Switches 5400zl and 3500yl support CDP?
ProCurve Networking Business recommends IEEE standards-based features for device discovery. To this end, the IEEE 802.1ab standard Link Layer Discovery Protocol (LLDP) is supported. It provides for device discovery for network management platforms and switch neighbor discovery."
I am going to call into HP and get some more info.
- Thread starter
- #9
Well, here's what I'm being told by HP. There switches support LLDP which, like stated above, is IEEE standards based discovery. New Cisco phones would be PoE supported and I was told by switch engineers that they could not forsee any issue; however, they were not well versed in regards to Cisco Call Manager.
Then I called Cisco and talked to a "voice engineer". The Cisco phones support LLDP-MED a subset of LLDP along with CDP. Also, FYI, the Catalyst switches support LLDP for compatibility connecting to 3rd party switches. The Cisco engineer also stated that there would not be any issue in using HP switches siting examples of using Cisco IP Phones with other IP Telephony vendors hardware. His main statement to me was that whatever switch was deployed that it support QoS, VLAN, and 802.3af PoE; I'd be in good shape.
When I asked both engineers for maybe a reference or case study I could draw from, neither could help me. I feel like "BuckWeet" is correct that in another year or two, Cisco will be forced to be more standards based solidifying the ability to work with already deployed infrastructure. IPT is fairly more expensive right now but as more manufacturers come to market with product, prices should drop. I cannot foresee Cisco trying to penetrate and evolve the key/pbx market by requiring the utter and complete overhaul of most customer's network equipment when so many others like Avaya, Mitel, ShoreTel, etc...can take advantage of already deployed standards.
I just wish someone could give me a real world instance of this running.
Then I called Cisco and talked to a "voice engineer". The Cisco phones support LLDP-MED a subset of LLDP along with CDP. Also, FYI, the Catalyst switches support LLDP for compatibility connecting to 3rd party switches. The Cisco engineer also stated that there would not be any issue in using HP switches siting examples of using Cisco IP Phones with other IP Telephony vendors hardware. His main statement to me was that whatever switch was deployed that it support QoS, VLAN, and 802.3af PoE; I'd be in good shape.
When I asked both engineers for maybe a reference or case study I could draw from, neither could help me. I feel like "BuckWeet" is correct that in another year or two, Cisco will be forced to be more standards based solidifying the ability to work with already deployed infrastructure. IPT is fairly more expensive right now but as more manufacturers come to market with product, prices should drop. I cannot foresee Cisco trying to penetrate and evolve the key/pbx market by requiring the utter and complete overhaul of most customer's network equipment when so many others like Avaya, Mitel, ShoreTel, etc...can take advantage of already deployed standards.
I just wish someone could give me a real world instance of this running.
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- #10
the difference here between the manufacturers you mention (except maybe AVAYA but you'd be crazy to choose AVAYA switch and router infostructure these days) and CISCO is that they do not have a choice but to be compatible with HP, cisco or whatever switches you want to put in.
If you deploy a MITEL VoIP system for example on an HP network MITEL says it works and HP says it works. And it does work!
But if you are having issues with QoS, voice quality, jitter, etc and you call MITEL for support the answer will be to go call your network vendor and the fingerpointing between the MITEL VAR and your network team begins. Meanwhile you are having issues and no one knows where the issue is. The same goes for any combo, I just picked MITEL and HP as an example.
CISCO on the other hand has an end to end solution that does NOT involve any other vendor and if there is an issue they will support it, as there is nowhere to point the finger.
That said CISCO IP phones will work on other manufacturer switches and the reverse of that. I have supported plenty of MITEL installs on CISCO switches that have gone great with no issues. The customer simply had already a CISCO network in place but AVVID was not a good fit for them (size wise or price wise).
I have personally not deployed call manager on any other switches but CISCO so i do not have experience with that. Hopefully I never will as I work for A cisco VAR and we do end to end CISCO deployments.
Bottom line is what price are you willing to pay and what kind of headaches are you going to inherit for that price.
You can drive that as the network engineer at your place but the final decision always relies with the finance team.
If you deploy a MITEL VoIP system for example on an HP network MITEL says it works and HP says it works. And it does work!
But if you are having issues with QoS, voice quality, jitter, etc and you call MITEL for support the answer will be to go call your network vendor and the fingerpointing between the MITEL VAR and your network team begins. Meanwhile you are having issues and no one knows where the issue is. The same goes for any combo, I just picked MITEL and HP as an example.
CISCO on the other hand has an end to end solution that does NOT involve any other vendor and if there is an issue they will support it, as there is nowhere to point the finger.
That said CISCO IP phones will work on other manufacturer switches and the reverse of that. I have supported plenty of MITEL installs on CISCO switches that have gone great with no issues. The customer simply had already a CISCO network in place but AVVID was not a good fit for them (size wise or price wise).
I have personally not deployed call manager on any other switches but CISCO so i do not have experience with that. Hopefully I never will as I work for A cisco VAR and we do end to end CISCO deployments.
Bottom line is what price are you willing to pay and what kind of headaches are you going to inherit for that price.
You can drive that as the network engineer at your place but the final decision always relies with the finance team.
- Thread starter
- #11
Thanks for the comments "whykap". I definitely can appreciate where your coming from on the end to end solution from one vendor. It really is a tough decision that I'm having to make because I plan on being with the district for many years to come and I'd hate to make a $$$$$$ mis-judgement when it comes IP telephony time. I want to make sure I do my homework in this decision process and be open minded to all facets of technology.
You evidentally have some experience with Mitel and I been investigating their solutions here lately as well; as a side-note to my HP Procurve investigation. What are your thoughts about Mitel IP phone system compared to that of Cisco's system?
You evidentally have some experience with Mitel and I been investigating their solutions here lately as well; as a side-note to my HP Procurve investigation. What are your thoughts about Mitel IP phone system compared to that of Cisco's system?
jneiberger
Technical User
cajuntank, if you want an unbiased opinion, I probably wouldn't install a Cisco system in a K-12 environment. If you're looking for ease-of-use and easy administration at a relatively low cost, there are definitely better options out there and don't have to worry as much about the brand name on your switches. Shoretel is a good example. If you'd rather not spend most of your time administering your system and you want something that works great with tons of features including voicemail and unified messaging, Shoretel is a better choice.
Just food for thought. We don't use Shortel because we're an Avaya shop, but we did look at them very closely recently. We were quite impressed.
Just food for thought. We don't use Shortel because we're an Avaya shop, but we did look at them very closely recently. We were quite impressed.
- Thread starter
- #13
I concurr, I am still in the investigative stages and since I will be doing the infrastructure first, just want to make sure I get the whole picture for down the road compatibility and use.
Just for couriosity's sake "jneiberger", what switching equipment do you use?
Just for couriosity's sake "jneiberger", what switching equipment do you use?
jneiberger
Technical User
We use Cisco switches. We're Cisco on the data side, Avaya on the phone side.
sully304
MIS
- Nov 19, 2005
- 4
We are a Nortel LAN shop with over 6,000 Cisco phones. We have had no interop issues in the mix enviroment. We do lose CDP functionality which means we need to spend a few extra minutes assigning the phone an Admin Vlan but other that we see no performace issues.
- Thread starter
- #16
Are you using Avaya IP Office?
Avaya is what we currently use as well in the form of Merlin Magix systems with a few Partner ACS system thrown in for added flavor. Since most of the Merlin handsets are 44xx series, we have, I believe, the option of using those sets even under a IP Office solution; therefore, I have not ruled out IP Office either. This would save a bundle since most of my sites are not e-rate funded.
We have our Merlin's networked together (maxed out this way) and also have the Partner's going through Multi-Tech VoIP gateways into the Merlin at our central office. For the most part, this works ok except the other Merlin sites coming to the central office (because Merlins network with each other via T1) use up some of the T1 channels, so we have less data available. We will be moving to 6Mb MPLS in a few months, so this won't be an issue; however, I don't want to hang on to T1's forever.
Either way, that's down the road and no telling what will be available then.
Avaya is what we currently use as well in the form of Merlin Magix systems with a few Partner ACS system thrown in for added flavor. Since most of the Merlin handsets are 44xx series, we have, I believe, the option of using those sets even under a IP Office solution; therefore, I have not ruled out IP Office either. This would save a bundle since most of my sites are not e-rate funded.
We have our Merlin's networked together (maxed out this way) and also have the Partner's going through Multi-Tech VoIP gateways into the Merlin at our central office. For the most part, this works ok except the other Merlin sites coming to the central office (because Merlins network with each other via T1) use up some of the T1 channels, so we have less data available. We will be moving to 6Mb MPLS in a few months, so this won't be an issue; however, I don't want to hang on to T1's forever.
Either way, that's down the road and no telling what will be available then.
jneiberger
Technical User
We are not using IP Office. We have a few Avaya TDM PBXs. One of the older ones is IP-enabled. We also just installed a new G350 that has almost nothing but IP phones attached to it.
cajuntank,
I have not touched a MITEL system for over 3yrs now and a lot has changed in their architecture since then. It is definately a good system with a lot of strong features.
Be aware however that their support does not work the same way as CISCO's. Your maintenance contract is with your VAR and not MITEL. So if the VAR were to go out of business (not unheard of) you would be SOL. Also if you as a customer tried to get to MITEL tech support you would again be SOL. Your var is the only one that can do that. Therefore anytime you need support or an upgrade you must may your var to come out and sit on the phone with MITEL on your behalf.
having worked with both systems (CISCO and MITEL) I would recommend CISCO anyday of the week. However MITEL is cheaper to purchase and generally speaking cheaper for installation services.
Remember that this is my opinion and is probably biased but opinions is what you are looking for and they are all biased one way or another.
Good luck on your choices and let us know what you decided to go with.
I have not touched a MITEL system for over 3yrs now and a lot has changed in their architecture since then. It is definately a good system with a lot of strong features.
Be aware however that their support does not work the same way as CISCO's. Your maintenance contract is with your VAR and not MITEL. So if the VAR were to go out of business (not unheard of) you would be SOL. Also if you as a customer tried to get to MITEL tech support you would again be SOL. Your var is the only one that can do that. Therefore anytime you need support or an upgrade you must may your var to come out and sit on the phone with MITEL on your behalf.
having worked with both systems (CISCO and MITEL) I would recommend CISCO anyday of the week. However MITEL is cheaper to purchase and generally speaking cheaper for installation services.
Remember that this is my opinion and is probably biased but opinions is what you are looking for and they are all biased one way or another.
Good luck on your choices and let us know what you decided to go with.
- Thread starter
- #19
jneiberger
Technical User
Mitel is a much smaller company than Cisco, but they have great support depending on your area. Their stuff is less complicated than Cisco's and is far more stable. It also has more features since it's a full-blown PBX and Mitel has been doing rock solid PBX stuff for many years.
If you already have a staff that is used to working on PBXs then the Mitel stuff will be a breeze to learn. The Cisco stuff can be rather annoying to people who have only PBX experience, but that's a total generalization.
If you already have a staff that is used to working on PBXs then the Mitel stuff will be a breeze to learn. The Cisco stuff can be rather annoying to people who have only PBX experience, but that's a total generalization.
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