Chicks in IT: Any statistics available? 2

[jimoblak]

Please excuse the title: no disrespect is intended toward the ladies (or any men that consider themselves as 'chicks'). I just wanted a catchy 'must read' title...

I just received an advertisement for MS Windows Server 2003 which pictures a 20-something woman standing in a room full of rack servers. I've noticed a lot of women appearing in IT advertising lately. Are advertisers picturing women for the same reason that they do in beer & automotive commercials or is there a growing market of female IT professionals that advertisers are trying to relate to?

When I started teaching computers, my classes were nearly all male. I'm noticing a growing female student population and was curious if this is part of a greater trend. Does anyone know where I could find gender (and possibly ethnic/race) data on the IT workforce? As an instructor that wants to diversify classes, it helps to market the classes by demonstrating the growing opportunites for all in IT.

- - picklefish - -
Why is everyone in this forum responding to me as picklefish?

 

[Onyxpurr]

It's so funny, because in reading this post I just realized some of the people I assumed were men, are women. :-D

In my classes, about 25% were women.

At work, last job was about 2/5 were women in IT (programmers and db admin) and in my current job it's 1/4 (1 being me).

I know of 1 IT female supervisor, but with pretty much masculine traits.

My analytical thinking was encouraged by my science, math, english, and study hour teachers. I grew up in a high school with a graduating class of about 40, but apparently great instruction! My love for computers came in while I was working as an Admin Asst and I had full reign over my pc. (I must admit I take small comfort from being a successful minority in the pc world).

As for analytical thinking...lemme just put it this way, my husband and I draw straws to see who gets to put together the new elelctronic stuff (I got computer last time and he got dvd player before that)

 

[rosieb]

Been doing a bit of research, as always, totally non-scientific but....

Most of my technical colleagues came in from scientific, but non - Computing backgrounds. There's a surprising no. of chemistry graduates in IT (OK, my field so I notice it). Recent (UK) stats show a massive decrease in applications for hard science degrees (UK Chemistry & Physics depts closing all over the place).

There is a major shortage of teachers for scientific and technical subjects, thus kids are pushed to non-technical subjects, especially girls.

"Computing" is offered as a subject at colleges, but at a derisorily low level, two examples:

I was asked to look at a database created by someone interviewing for a job who had "extensive MS Access training"; one table, one form & one report - all obviously wizard created. The sad thing was, the candidate believed what they were claiming.

Two colleagues have completed MS Access training at a local college and been told that "there is nothing else we can teach you" [sic]. They have minimal understanding even of database structure.

I recognise sleipnir214's point about spatio-temporal abilities, but I'm not sure it applies. I'm lousy at fitting shapes (and I frequently have to turn maps upside down) but I'm not half bad at problem analysis (not to mention "borrowing" & applying solutions).

I think there is a macho thing about computers, so you will get more boys involved and stella740pl is absolutely right about some of the girls doing it because of a particular object of attraction. But at the end of the day, I forsee a serious shortage of IT professionals of either sex because of a lack of rigorous training.

(But then, maybe we girlies should just leave it to the experts. <retires to kitchen>)

 

[SQLSister]

A lack of rigorous training indeed. Well it''s off topic but I so agree with you. I see so many people (male and female) who are in IT now who couldn't analyze their way out of a paper bag. We see them everyday here asking questions that no one who is a professional in the field should have to ask.

A lot of the younger (I'm not picking on younger people here, just that they came along after teh training went down the tubes) people I see resumes for, d interview, or work with have no underlying concept of how systems work, all they know is code snippets. And not even very difficult ones at that. ithink of all the questions I've seen where people come in looking for the wizard to do something and are all upset if there isn;t one. OR the ones who can't recognize why something they want to do can't work the way they think it should becasue they don't hionestly understand the software they program in.

And a lot of it has to do with the current training process. It used to be difficult to get through a program for an IT field, now all it seems to take is an abilty to keep paying the money to the school. I remeber when they used to actually test for analytical abilty before accepting you into the school. And it's no wonder the teaching is bad. One local technical school around her only pays it's instructors $10 an hour. What kind of good IT people are you going to get at that rate?

 

[rosieb]

SQLSister
Is this off topic? In which case I apologise, and I'm probably wandering way off topic here. But my major complaint is lack of understanding of the underlying data of a system.

<But, rant>
I get really ticked off with users who expect me to produce reports via Access front ends from a database which doesn't collect the necessary data, then they complain about my incompetence in handling the data. Show then the input screen - no date of input - then they complain I can't produce the required reports

It turns out that previous reports, the ones I've been asked to &quot;improve&quot; only reported partial data - I start asking questions about what is actually being measured and I'm seen as being difficult.</rant>

To try to return to topic, my organization seems to find it almost impossible to recruit persons of any gender, capable of understanding data and , more importantly, the concept of data integrity.

Opioniated, always; correct, occasionally; so, enlighten me.
Rosie

 

[Tarwn]

I think the year I graduated from school there were about 2-3 females graduating to about 20 males. What was interesting was that the ratio appeared to be much differant in the one or two MIS classes I took. I couldn't be as exact but it looked more like a 60/40 split. Then again I am basing that on the optional ASP class I took and the required VB (it was a prereq, but they let me take them at the same time since I could have passed either final exam on the first day). So it could be that the programming classes drew a larger or smaller ratio of women in the MIS program, but the full-on CS degree drew less women.
When I started my degree the chair of the dept was female (not to say she got an operation or anything, she retired halfway through ).

Anyways, just my slightly useless numbers

[sub]01000111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100101 01100101 00111111[/sub]
The never-completed website:

http://www.tiernok.com/

 

[sabrinaduncan]

I don't really trust the Bureau of Labor Statistics. After all, they still claim that there is a shortage of IT talent.

 

[jwenting]

The only females I've so far come across since starting out in 1997 in IT are functional analysts, trainers and testers.

Among those roles it's maybe a 50-50 ratio, technical staff in my experience tend to be all male.

 

[lionelhill]

Rosieb,

I was struck by your comment about non-CS scientists showing up in IT roles. I work in biological research, where our very poor long-term career structure tends to push a lot of people out into related jobs. Biology has a very mixed-gender population, and amongst the current bioinformatics people I know, there are plenty of both. But I do get the feeling women tend to have a slight bias towards public understanding/science communication, while men have a slight biass to bioinformatics.

Incidentally I've got very mixed feelings about this sideways movement. It's jolly fun for those involved, and many are very bright people, but I feel I lack vital foundation in numerical analysis and programming techniques. Writing a mean pacman is really no substitute. Looking at commercial scientific software I have a feeling the skills problem affects industry too.

 

[benlinkknilneb]

<sillyness> I think I speak for nerds everywhere when I say we wouldn't mind *more* IT chicks... </sillyness>

Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled &quot;F1!&quot;

 

[CajunCenturion]

sabrinaduncan - There is a shortage of IT talent.

There is no shortage of those who believe that the only requirement in being an IT specialist is to be able to spell IT.
There is no shortage of those who think that by pressing CTL-ATL-DEL makes them a Systems Administrator.
There is no shortage of those who after figuring out how to put an =SUM() expression in an Excel worksheet consider themself an expert in MS Office.
There is no shortage of IT Wanna-bes.

But as to real talent. Yes, there is a shortage. If you don't believe me, puruse the technical forums and read the questions.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[jimoblak]

As an observer of teenagers, it seems that those that move to IT are often fascinated by video games. I don't see students walking into class asking 'how can I determine the greatest possible prime number?' They want to know how to make games or find cheats. Do any of the women folk want to reveal what pulled them into IT? Were you video game junkies? Were you chasing after a fellow in IT classes? Were you chasing after money? Or were you simply drawn to the warm, comforting glow of a CRT monitor? (darn those cold, heartless LCDs!)

Could women be promoting the stereotype of nurturer by having (as lionelhill notes) 'bias towards public understanding/science communication'. Could women be bringing a better human interface to the often cold world of computing? As an artist and a marketer, I find the bulk of my time is spent making applications friendlier for the masses. Would I be better at this if I were female?

- - picklefish - -
Why is everyone in this forum responding to me as picklefish?

 

[SQLSister]

What drew me into IT. An interesting question. I've always been analytical, it's like breathing to me, utterly necessary. But my degree is in Political Science. I got into IT through the backdoor, I was working doing manpower studies and we had to do our own programing (in APL - anybody heard of that one?) to do complex regression analysis equations. Then I moved on to an audit agency where I shared my office with the trainer who needed reports in dbaseIII programmed and the auditors needed someone who understood data to figure out how to import data from various mainframe databases into something they could use to analyze it. Then I started doing a lot of the support for the pcs in the office because our official IT guy was cranky and people didn't want to ask him (this was inthe dawn of the pc on your desk era). This led to a job doing training which lead to a job doing more training which led to a web site support job which led to databse programming which led to database admin and programming.

Video games, never played them, don't have an interest in doing so. Finding the greatest possible prime number; now that sounds interesting.

Rosie, I gotta agree with you that there is definitely an underlying lack of understanding of data, not just with users but even with most programmers.

 

[lionelhill]

There's nothing wrong with video games either, but the sort of person whose aim in life is to get to level 7 and improve his kick-boxing skills with Lara is no more likely to be a good programmer than the chap who thinks that he's a computer guru because he's found a website listing the cheat codes.

The person who might be a passable programmer is the chap/chappess who wonders what makes it all work, and how to decide in the most efficient way how a ball should bounce, how to arrange the data about which bricks have been knocked out of a wall, and display the wall in accurate perspective. Thinking about chess programming certainly gave me a lot more perspective on recursive searching and how to express a set of moves and positions in an efficient way.

The really sad thing is that people like that from 20 years ago went off and wrote their own games rather than playing other people's, and I bet some of them are respected posters here. But it's hard nowadays, because realistically no one is going to go off in their spare time and brew up a clone of sim city that's half as good as the original.

And realistically, how many people are going to fall in love with solving non-linear sets of equations and become (good) programmers as a result. And will either group of people be suitably skilled to become a DBA?

 

[Rhea737]

&quot;Do any of the women folk want to reveal what pulled them into IT?&quot;

At 15, I wrote my first program in Basic on an Atari 100 hooked up to a floor console TV that saved to cassette tape. Then I was hooked! Developing software is the work I love.

(I also enjoy role playing video games, reading, cooking, drawing, comic books, movies, writing poetry, and cake decorating.)

Happy Holidays!

 

[Onyxpurr]

Never interested in video games, if I was I wouldn't go into CIS.

What attracted me? Was taking Busines major and thought it was too general. At work, I did a lot of reports and such through MS Access for a construction company who didn't want to recignize me as a Project Admin and definately wouldn't give me a job as a Project Mgr because it's a man's world.

Anyway, eventually was included as a unofficial help desk person for the company and decided my love was for computers. Started the CIS degree at Devry and loved, no I mean LOVED, my programming classes. I had never taken a class before that I was so excited by (had gone to ASU, PC, GCC, etc) until I did this.

Amazingly enough about 5 years have passed and I still love it. I love being creative and yet analytical at the same time. And I'm a tech junkie!

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Although I'm no chick, lionel,

My interest in computers was sparked by <very> old macintosh games. When I got to high school and discovered programmable calculators, I noticed the parallel and began attempting to create my own little games. I had a pretty slick version of a Casino by the time I finished 11th grade.

My favorite computer games are RPGs. In attempts to design my own, I learned loads about the necessity of speedy data recovery (thus about database design). It's all in how you approach your problems... so I'd say that a gamer-turned-programmer could easily become a DBA, assuming his gaming interests had a database-style component to them. If he were creating a game like Super Mario Brothers, then I doubt he would be as qualified for DBA... but he'd be much better qualified in an animation-based job than I am.

I agree completely that people &quot;whose aim in life is to get to level 7&quot; won't necessarily make good programmers. It's definitely the people who ask, &quot;How did THAT work?&quot;

Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled &quot;F1!&quot;

 

[lespaul]

For me it's the problem solving aspect. I love RPG, especially those where you have to put/gather all the pieces, solve the clues, look for the hidden doors, etc. in order to make it all come together. I never expected to turn into a programmer. After 10 years in accounting (the month end stuff was boring every month, but I loved searching through the General Ledger looking for errors and correcting them - figuring out what the people did wrong!) I ended up going back to school and got my Bachelor of Business Administration with an MIS concentration. I figured Database Admin was for me! I loved, I mean LOVED, my database design class. I could get to third normal form first try, my classmates hated me!

But now I've decided that I prefer programming. It's so cool taking nothing/idea and turning it into something/application! Each part of the application is like a little puzzle - what do I need it to do and how can I get it to do what I want. And when I succeed I do the 'Happy Programmer Dance'!!



Leslie

 

[jimoblak]

Do I understand correctly that the majority of us never really targeted the IT field when we decided what we wanted to be when we grew up? I started out with a major in fine art.

Is there no point to promoting computer professions to high school girls? Should we just let them fall into it by chance like the rest of us?

- - picklefish - -
Why is everyone in this forum responding to me as picklefish?

 

[Onyxpurr]

In a way isn't that some kind of -ism to say there aren't enough so-and-so in a certain field? Or are ya just looking for a date?

I wanted to be an architect when I was in high school (always wanted to be a rarity in whatever field I chose).

Yes, I love the &quot;puzzle&quot; mentality too. I love to fit everything together and find an answer. I love tackling difficult reports and databases.

 

[SQLSister]

jimoblak, I can't speak for everyone but back in the dark ages when I went to high school, girls were most definitely NOT encouraged to pursue any career except wife and mother. I had the highest SATS score in my school and was still not encouraged to do anything. I was not permitted to apply to a college which offered a technical track and certainly not to a college that was rigorous academically. The boy who had the second highest SATS score went to MIT. One of the girls I went to high school with who was in the top 25 of our class was not encouraged to attend college at all because it was &quot;a waste of money to educate girls.&quot;

Personally I think it is extremely important to encourage girls with analytical abilites to go into careers like IT. I have seen way too many smart women working at minimum wage trying to support a family on one income because their husband (or boyfriend) walked out and didn't pay any child support and they had no education to fall back on.