Certifications

[LadySlinger]

Just curious on this one:

After my recent quest of a new job that was more IT related than my previous (part clerk/part support), and seeing most of your postings on new positions I had decided that my BS wasn't enough anymore and that I was really out of date with the IT world.
So I took the next step and decided on certifications. The program I'm following now is the Certification for Information Assurance/Homeland Security through a local CC. The class I'm in right now would get me 70% to a Network+ cert (which I know isn't worth anything by itself).

My question is having more certs, even the little ones like Network+ or A+ with the big certs (for example a Cisco or like what I'm taking CoIA) worth more than just the big certs alone?
It took me 2 years and about 20-25 interviews to land this job (I live in Michigan if that helps)...I was very close to quitting IT all together this summer. Once I get experience from this job under my belt, I want to be prepared for the next round of interviews...which I hope is less than this last time.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MasterRacker]

This thread thread654-1115739 will lead you to another thread where certs. and degress have been discussed. There have also been many other discussions on this. Your question is a little different but you still may gain some insight from those conversations.

As far as "little" certs helping with the "big" certs, I think the answer still lays out about the same though. Their worth will depend on what specific employers are looking for in a given region.

<sub>Jeff
[purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me</sub>

 

[LadySlinger]

Thanks MasterRacker, I'm looking through them right now.

I do have to say after reading the other forums that there sure are some negative/frustrated people responding to some of those questions in the other forums. Trust me, I know IT can make a person cynical or jaded, but the responses some of these people had to an innocent question...hell, at one point my cynical and critical attitude cost me a job. You should really think about counseling. Cutting down and practically insulting their fellow IT...sure beats the purpose of this "help" forum.
Yes there are several people that need help getting started in IT. Cutting them down and complaining about why they couldn't search themselves...you're not someone I would like to work with or be seen around. Remember that one day when you didn't know how to do something and you needed help? How would you like it if someone called you stupid for not figuring it out yourself?
I won't apologize for posting this. If you're sick of this type of posting then don't respond or check your attitude if you decide to respond here

(MasterRacker - not you...you were nice and informative).

It just shocks me how cynical some of you are towards people starting their career. Especially in a field that could be dying. If I were just starting, I would change my career thinking because of some of the attitudes in these postings.

*steps off soapbox*

 

[longhair]

LadySlinger,
to add to MasterRacker's post and the other thread...
certs or a degree can get you in the door - probably about as much as networking. what i've found, though, is that once you have the foot in the door (interview) you have to sell yourself. you have to show the company what you can do for them, how you can help them - why spending x $'s more for you will save them x+ $'s down the road.
regards,
longhair

 

[srmega41]

On a different note, sometimes the certs do little good if you have no experience. I am in the process of hiring for a technical position that would work on both the data (WAN) and the voice equipment we use. Not once have I asked if a person has any certifications and used that to determine their qualifications.

For me, their ability to do the job is much more important than a piece of paper that says you can do it. Real world experience is hard to get, but in my opinion, it is much more valuable.

longhair has a good point regarding getting in the door, if that is what the Company is looking for. Personally, I could care less if someone has their CCNA, CCIE, or whatever at this point, because I need someone who can do the job. The Certs can be a great seperator for two equal candiates, but experience on the hardware/software is worth its' weight in gold.

This may not be a lot of help, but I would recommend finding ways to work on the equipment you want to further your career on. Think of how many out of work MCSE's or CCIE's there are. That certification will not help them if they cannot work on the stuff a company is looking to hire for. I have seen those cert's lose their glamorous appeal they had in the 90's and early in 2000.

Just my own two cents,

Good luck,

Scott M.

 

[longhair]

srmega41,
well put.
you explained it better than i. with the selling yourself idea and showing the company what you can save them i was trying to get at your experience idea. obviously you will not be saving the company anything if they need to train you and it's my opinion that to sell yourself you have to show your experience.
regards,
longhair

 

[LadySlinger]

Right and I do have the experience (5 years), at least from a support/administration/maintenance end, plus a 4 year degree.

I'm not sure with the rest of the U.S. but I know that it was hard to sell myself during the interviews in Michigan. I.e. I'm not a programmer: tried it and failed miserably. One job that I so excited for and had almost all the qualifications for didn't hire me because I didn't have Java experience.

I guess I'm more or less looking at the reality of certifications. Like I said earlier in addition to my experience and degree, I decided to grab an Information Security Cert. Once the training is completed, I was told by the leader of the program that I should not be asking anything less than $65K. I'm starting to wonder if its an exaggeration as some of my previous interviews were for management/senior level type positions that were offering less than $40K...and I'm talking from one of the Big 3 Auto makers.
But then it's like what you said, srmega, it's all based on experience. So then once I get this cert I wonder how SOL am I from that $65K? I'll even take $50! LOL

 

[longhair]

LadySlinger,
remember a big part of your income is from bene's not just salary. although, the big3 are pulling back on the bene's they are still a site better than a lot of industries.
regards,
longhair

 

[LadySlinger]

Huh...that is true. Unfortunately I haven't been able to get my foot into the door with a large company. With my current job I'm paying the same weekly as I was at my last job, but bi-weekly.

That is a good point tough Longhair...as much of a pain it is to see get withdrawed from your check every week, I'd rather have $40 pulled each week and pay $250 for emergancy than with a $40,000 hospital bill!!!

 

[longhair]

LadySlinger,
bene's aren't just med insurance -
vaca amount to start
tuition reimbursement
life insurance
etc.
regards,
longhair

 

[srmega41]

Stability,
Additional opprotunities (both vertical and horizontal),
Exposure to your strengths,
Projects,
Working Environment...

Someone will work at a job making 30% less than they could somewhere else if they get the right opprotunities and exposure. If a company pays you $65K and is gone in two years, is that worse than a company that starts you at $40K, gives a 6% raise each year, and will be around in 20 years? I would think so.

Again, ask the folks who were CCIE's, making $125K four years ago where they are now. Many of them apply for jobs that only pay a third of that today. Think long term. A lower paying job with better additional offerings will normally be a better job in 10 or 20 years than a high paying job where you go to bed every night wondering if you will have a job tomorrow.

Scott M.

 

[mmorancbt]

Good advice above.

I often tell people to be prepared to trade pay for opportunity. At least as an interim step to building a list of project successes and a reputation.

Back to the original question. I am honestly of the opinion that the attaining of certs often becomes a hindrance. The individual begins placing the acquisition of the cert as the goal – instead of the knowledge one should be attaining.

Personally, I’ve worked as a technology professional and full time as a consultant since 2005. I consistently earn very good rates and have never (EVER) been asked about any certifications or degrees.

This is good since educationally, my background is English and Philosophy. I have never taken any computer related courses but I’ve taught a few. I develop in SQL, .NET of various varieties, XML, and other technologies and my education in these areas never ends – just not in the classroom environment.

With the release of my book early this year, I’ve been all over the US speaking to a lot of MIS/CIS instructors. Recently, the topic came up about the value of the education if students could not be placed immediately into the job they feel they trained for.

I blogged the topic here:

CIS-MIS Education: How Do You Guage Success In a Microwave Society

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/archives/006035.asp

It is pertinent to the conversation here but has even more far-reaching implications. There is an ongoing misconception that IT careers start and are build only in IT departments. In particular, IT departments in large companies.

However, the majority of jobs in the US are small business. And small business covers some pretty lucrative businesses. Those with 30-250 people are often overlooked for IT services. They are screaming for good- well rounded technologists and people who are willing to take on projects based on need – rather than “my pet technology.”

Of course, you may not end up with an IT/MIS/CIS title at one of these companies. But a rose by any other name – as the poet so eloquently put it.

In any case, I’ve rambled a bit.

Certs are as good as the useful information they’ve left you with after attaining them. In and of themselves they are as valuable as the paper and ink on which they are printed.

Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at:

http://www.cbtoolkit.com

Career Blog:

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/

Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)

 

[alexhu]

since 2005

Not too experienced then Matthew

(pity theres no 'after post edit' on this board!)

Alex

 

[LadySlinger]

Wow, congrats on your book that is coming out Matthew!

srmega & longhair - you're right most people often forget about the benes...mainly because benes don't really pay the bills. So when you live in an area where everything is a little overpriced (rent, groceries, etc), discounts can be handy, but doesn't pay the rent.
However that is one reason why I left my last job. I was the lone IT person there, quickly becoming a sales assistant and somewhat accounting all at the same time (lay-offs). Then when I asked for time off - which i know is entitled to me - managers began to question "What do we do when you're gone?" Hell, I was sick with the flu, 104 fever, and they were begging me to come in to rebuild a report server. That was the absolute LAST straw.
So I finally got this offer after two years, paid a heck of a lot better, and the benes were pretty good (other than the cost of health insurance). But everyone LEAVES by 5:00 pm and they rarely work on the weekends. And the BEST thing...someone was trying to turn me into their personal assistant...the managers pinned his ears to the wall and said that I am to be STRICTLY IT.

But to sum up (coffee is still kicking in, so I know I'm rambling a bit): A certificate is essentially a pretty piece of paper that is worth $0.50 but you pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to obtain. It can get you pass the HR people that filter out the resumes in larger companies into an interview, but for smaller companies (and during the interview in the larger companies) they're all about hands-on experience outside of the classroom.
Then during the interview, if you sell yourself correctly, you get the job. This may mean playing a little dirty too...I'm not talking lying per say, but for example I found for the support type roles, if I took off my wedding ring, coincidently I would get to the second interview (where I would where it and not get any rejection letter or response back). I'm not trying to imply anything, I just happen to tally this. LOL.

 

[mmorancbt]

Oops... 1995. It was late, I was trying get some shut eye.

Oh well.

Regarding enjoying what you do and the like.

Several years ago I was VP of Technology and an Equity owner of a financial services company. Benefits, very large salary, etc.

I woke up one morning and decided I wasn't doing what I wanted to do and I gave notice. I walked away from the equity, the salary, etc. There were a few that thought I was crazy and they might be right.

But I knew I could consult and make a living. I wrote down my ideal working day and the term "Geographically Untethered Income". Both are up at my desk.

Now, I consult out of the house (between 6-8 days out of 10), I still set the rate I want and the hours, and I have some time to write a little.

I'm not a big believer in dream it and you'll acheive it - necesarily. But, if you don't have the goal firmly affixed and you don't gauge your opportunities based on those goals, you will certainly never achieve them.

I am currently writing, The Technology Consultant's Toolkit for Cisco Press and have two other book deals in the works. But I work in IT and make a very good living doing so.

They keys to making decent money in IT:

* You need to provide value.
* Value is not necessarily technical talent. Certainly not alone.
* You need to find a company that values the value you bring.
* Understand the two Roles of Technology - there are just two..
- Information: Storage and Retrieval for analysis and decision support
- Automation: The automation of the delivery of products or services.
* Then help companies perform those two items better.

* Become an entreprenuer - even if working as an employee
- Take ownership of your work and your career decisions
- Set income goals separate of average salary surveys
- Talk with your employer about your income goals and how to get there.
- If there is no way - ever - to acheive them, find a new employer.

* Last tip: finding a new employer is not about want ads or job boards. Those are the very worst places to find opportunity.

Another blog of interest.. The Best Places For Business and Career

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/archives/005057.asp

And have fun!

Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at:

http://www.cbtoolkit.com

Career Blog:

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/

Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)

 

[langleymass]

I am learning neuro-linguistic programming and conversational hypnosis. I am currently on a contract and can't wait for it to end, so I have more time to study what this stuff. If you want to get people to give you a job, you have to capture and lead their imaginations. Eventually you can get them to think the way you want them to. It takes practice though.

 

[mmorancbt]

Langleymass,

Having known people studying and discussed and read about, NLP and conversational hypnosis, there is very little to it other than good people skills and persuassion. However, if you learn how to read other's reactions more quickly and guide your conversation accordingly, it could be valuable.

Unfortunately, too many of the people I've met who were learning (or trying to learn) it, struggled with people skills in general and were hoping to learn a skill that allowed to to manipulate others in an underhanded way.

The problem is that it is generally taught by people who are naturally persuasive and the student believes it is NLP that made them so.

Better than NLP is to be an engaging, well-rounded individual. One who has been exposed to varied topics and can engage them in conversation. One who can disagree with a smile but maintain a passionate position - without belittling others.

Unbridled passion towards helping a business acheive its objective is NLP for the IT professional. It is persuasive and will lead people to give you the job or contract you want.

Why? Because it is rare - almost impossible - to find someone who gets as passionate about someone's business as the owner.

If the goal with NLP is better people skills, go at it. If the goal is some covert, underhanded manipulation of situations, you will find it seriously lacking and gimicky.

Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at:

http://www.cbtoolkit.com

Career Blog:

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/

Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)

 

[langleymass]

Matthew,

Your knowledge of NLP is still somewhat limited. There are practitioners who can reduce allergies and cure phobias. Many people simply use it on themselves. It is extremely powerful.

Many people already do the stuff that NLP teaches. They just aren't consciously aware of it. These are the people who have good "people skills."

Years ago, I had a friend who was an excellent artist. He didn't really know how he did it. He just did it.

I know from experience that passion is not always enough. I know from experience being well-rounded and engaging is certainly not enough.

One guy in my class has been studying stuff like NLP for years. He is fat and ugly. In spite of this, he is in a six-year relationship with a very attractive woman. He's a cool guy and knows that what he has is because of what he has learned from NLP.

I have noticed that many of the critics of NLP are people who are already basically getting what they want out of life, whether it be career, relationships, or whatever. I am not yet sure what this source of resentment toward NLP is, but have a lots of theories. I have also observed that when these critics of NLP argue with me, they just end up providing evidence that re-inforces my position.

When you talk to people who have jobs they like, they are somewhat honest about it. They will often say something like: "I was in the right place at the right time." Some will be more honest about it and just say: "I got lucky."

I have never had much sympathy for the pollyana attitude. Optimism is a good thing. Simply pretending that bad things do not exist is usually not a good thing. But for some, the pollyana attitude serves them. My theory is that they have just been lucky, too.

 

[mmorancbt]

Langleymass,

Couple things here.

First, I never expressed any resentment towards NLP. I presented my experience and assessment with those I've discussed it with - people who both use it and teach it. I certainly don't resent it. Resent is a very strong word.

In fact, I indicate that if your objectives with NLP are not "underhanded" to go at it. It doesn't bother me. It is the idea of being "covertly" manipulative that bothers me. It implies an dishonesty.

Second, I don't even know where the pollyanna comment is coming from. Except to say that I am certainly an optimist. But pretending that bad things don't happen is not part of my psyche or vernacular. In fact, I just blogged this morning on coming home and finding a flood inside our house.

It wasn't a good thing - although, the work we did as a family to correct it and our attitude towards it was - I must admit - good. And I drew a positive from it - not because it wasn't inconvenient or that it won't cost us some money and time - both very valuable commodities. But because we really only have three choices in our response. One, be upset and angry about the whole thing. Two, be emotioanlly aloof about it. Three, find some positive element while we correct the damage.

We chose option 3.

If that is a Pollyanna attitude, I'll maintain that it beats the alternatives.

Regarding getting lucky - man, I think luck is a great thing. But I also believe your preparedness is a great luck enhancer. I don't play the lottery, I don't gamble, etc. So I am going to have to have "luck" in more substantive things. One way to make luck a more normal part of your everyday is to do lots of things.

This means, get exposed to opportunities and have a means of analyzing them so you can make a rapid decision on them. When I started consulting in the Phoenix area, I visited 300 companies over 6-7 weeks. I ended up with 4 good clients - the type of client that fits my profile of a good client. It generates 10K per month pretty easily.

Was I lucky? Uh guess. But only with 4 our of 300 potential clients. Was I unlukcy with the rest? I don't even view it that way. Lucky versus unlucky. One client suggested that it was quite a coincidence that I met up with them when I did - they needed document assembly experience in the insurance and legal industries - I have both.

I told him that if you visit 300 companies in a few weeks you will have a coincidence or two.

I've relayed this story before. It is true (at least in my Pollyanna nostalgic childhood recollection).

When I was about 8 years old there was a kid named Andrew in our neighborhood. Nothing particularly special about Andrew in most regards. But Andrew found money all the time. Everywhere we went. A quarter here, a couple dimes there, even dollar bills. Sometimes it was a bunch of Orange Crush recycylable bottles.

He was unselfish and shared his "wealth" as it were. We'd go the store and buy candy bars, soda, whatever.

But it was aggravating too. We all wanted to find money, just like Andrew.

One day, after he had found some money - again... I asked him, "Andrew, how do you find money all the time."

He thought about it for a minute and answered, "I look at the ground when I walk."

That was it? That was the secret? It seemed way too simple. But the funny thing is I remember that Andrew walked with his head down - always scanning the ground.

I don't think it was for money per se because in remembering Andrew, he found all sorts of things. Some good, some bad.

I used the lesson later to explain how I always found clients and business opportunities. I simply looked where those opportunities existed. Much of the time, nothing. But you only need one or two good ones to appear lucky.

Once again, if NLP helps you, great! No resentment. Am I sceptical, sure, not because I care whether or not people pursue it but because I am convinced there are simpler answers to the results.

From a pragmatic standpoint, if someone finds that eating 10 Blueberries and a granola bar helps them achieve more, they should do it.

The truth is that everyone will experience more luck if they do more directed guided activity in an areas of interest and take action on a few things.

Also, that they view setbacks (flooded houses) as par for the course. It is what occurs in life. Therefore, you are not devestated when it does and you don't spend a lot of time on those events - correct it, learn from it, and move on.

Eventually, a situation you put yourself into will take a posiitive turn. When it does, someone will indicate that you are so lucky. And you will remember all the things that didn't go right, all the guided/directed work that you did, and you will nod politely because what else can you say.

Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at:

http://www.cbtoolkit.com

Career Blog:

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/

Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)

 

[LadySlinger]

Langleymass:
Would something like EMDR fall into this catagory? Or is more of a sister to NLP? Just curious as this is the first I've heard of the NLP. I did go to their web site to find out more and to me it sounds like a process I went through a couple of years ago, just under a different name.
Just curious is all.