Certification / Life advice 4

[slightlydissatisfied]

Advice

I hope this isn't too off-the-wall for this forum but here goes anyway. Been working in IT for 6 years. I'm not a techie at heart (really more into books/the arts) but do enjoy some aspects of what I do, in particular the problem solving aspects and, most importantly, it pays the bills.

However, I now find myself at a bit of a crossroads. I've been in the same place for 5 years, and although the work is OK and not stressful, and I really like the people I work with, the job is going nowhere. I.e., there is no training, no chance of promotion (very flat management structure) and pretty low wages. Essentially, the job pays me enough to live a pretty good life, but the thought of being here at 40 (I'm mid 30's just now), just depresses the hell out of me. There is just nowhere to go with the company.

So, I find myself posting in this forum because....I've been considering doing the Koenig MCSE & MCDBA bootcamps (the company is in India but has essentially a very good reputation) early next year. Since there isn't a hope in hell of my current employer giving me unpaid leave to go and do this (let alone actually paying for it themselves), I'd have to chuck in my current job to do the course.

So, the question is this. Do I do the sensible thing and stay where I am, earning an OK wage but learning very few new skills (I don't have the confidence to apply for most new jobs out there currently because my skillset is pretty specific to where I work) and essentially accept a mediocre wage and career for the next few years...OR, do I do the not-so-sensible thing and chuck in my job, get myself certified as an MCSE & MCDBA then come back and start looking for a job with better career prospects. It probably wouldn't be easy but I do have a partner who would help support me through the rough times.

Incidentally, I know there is the self-study route, which I have done before (MCP in VB6), but have found that essentially that takes up almost ALL of my spare time after work. Life is short and I'm just not happy spending all my spare time over a couple of years getting these certs.

This has become more convoluted than I'd intended. I guess essentially I'm asking 'do you think my plan to give up my job to get certified is a very stupid one?' and 'do these certifications hold sufficient value in todays world to give me a damn good chance of a job when completed?'.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[Skittle]

You are in almost exactly the position I found myself a few years ago.

I wanted out of my 'going nowhere' job. I also did not have the confidence to just to go out there with an old fashioned green screen skill set. I was 36. However I was paid well, I'm still there and still paid well.

I decided to stick it out and do the self study slog.
I now have the MCAD .NET and the MCDBA 2000. It has been a weight on my back for 2 years. Weekends and holidays have been eaten up by it. I'm still at it - now moving on to the SQL 2005 certifications. The worst I feel is behind me as the more stuff you learn, the more cross over there is and it becomes easier.

I seriously considered packing in IT because it seemed such an impossible task to achieve. But I couldn't find a career that interested me or I thought I would be comfortable doing so I kept on the self study route.
Doors will open for me very soon but here are some of the things you have to consider.

1) What is your learning style?
How fast can you learn the stuff in the certs?
I find it hard to stay focused on new stuff for long
chunks of time. If you do too, you may find it easier
to take a day off work each week and do it that way.
I bumped into a guy at a test centre that also used
all of his holiday allocation to get an MCSE while
in a 'going nowhere' job. I think it's a common thing to
do.

2) An opinion I see on these forums often, is that
experience is more valuable than certs - which I agree
with. Certs don't gurantee a job but I think/hope many
employeers still rate them. I know I do.
They offered me a framework and a dicipline to me
learning that 'just reading a book' wouldn't do.

3) What sort of commitments do you have outside of work?

4) Can you afford those expensive courses as an option?

I think it comes down to how fast you can get the certs if you leave work. For me it was also 'what the heck else am I going to do as an alternative?'

Also consider trying to put yourself on the market.
It's something I have not yet had the guts to do but you may find there are places that will take you on and offer training support.

If I were an IT manager I would see an employee who wanted to learn a skill each year as an asset - unfortuantely my current IT manager doesn't see it that way. It's just a cost.




Dazed and confused

 

[tfg13]

Essentially, you are looking at spending good hard earned money to go to an MCSE boot camp. Myself, I would not go to a boot camp. The pace in which all the info is pushed at you (not to your pace) is mind boggling. Can you grasp the info of the 7 required tests in one (or 2) weeks? From the sound of your job, you don't do a lot of system administration now. Are you going to be able to visualize every single task that is being taught to you (only a few boot camps have hands on, and you won't have much time to do those hands on labs).

Then, it comes to getting the capability to be marketed. Myself, I am not Microsoft certified at all. However, I've been doing Microsoft system administration for about 7 years. Over that 7 years, I've made it my goal to become the "expert" that everyone comes to with their problems. I am not paper certified, but have the knowledge. One of these days I will start doing the certs, just been too lazy.

The previous paragraph is there for a reason. Once you are an MCSE, you'll be "tested" in interviews. There is a big difference, and an experienced system administrator knows this, between Microsoft answers, and real world answers. During these interviews, you might be asked these questions, and expect to know the "real world" answers.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know the consequences of quitting a job that provides for you and your family. Not saying you can't get a better one, but sometimes, you have to stick it out there. If it gets cut off, you know you tried, but if it doesn't, that's even better.

 

[slightlydissatisfied]

Thanks guys, both very useful bits of advice. I think the 'right' think to do is follow the path that you followed Skittle, and just try the certification thing at home first. The problem is that I work much better when I have to work. I.e. When there is real pressure. If I did leave my job I'd be very aware that I had to work hard at the bootcamp and get the certs done. With no pressure I'm just not sure I have the discipline to get it done. When I was newer to IT I think I would have, but I tend to guard my spare time more jealously these days.

One strength that I have is that I am good at cramming and passing exams. Unfortunately the flip side of this is that I really don't work that well when I don't have to, and my current job just doesn't give me enough pressure. Essentially I'm getting lazy, and the lazier I become from the lack of pressure, the more out of date my skills are becoming. Sometimes I think the best thing would be for me to get fired, just to give me a good kick up the backside.

To address your other points Skittle, unfortunately my company doesn't allow days off other than my standard holiday allowance, so it would be weekends and evenings. They are stable, but very inflexible in this day and age. I agree experience is more important than certs, but I think certs are good in that they give you an excellent 'grounding' in the technology, and working towards an exam is a good way to learn since you have something specific to aim for.

Commitments outside work are just a flat and fiancee (getting married sometime in the next couple years). Unfortunately I don't have a few thousand kicking around in the bank so I would pay for the courses with a loan. If I couldn't find a job when I got back, my partner would support me, but with the mortgage, things would be tough.

Thanks again for your help guys. I think I need to go away and do some more serious thinking.

 

[Skittle]

I certainly would not expect a boot camp to solve all your problems. I did an accelerated boot camp course on the MCAD and felt it was a waste of time.

Immense pressure, the knowledge didn't stick and only passed 1 out of 3 exams.

I think the most important thing is to have a plan.
If you intend to pack up your job and do something else, make sure its an option without risk otherwise you are creating problems. I decided I was getting good money, I don't know what else to do so I'll strengthen my skill base via certs which will give me more options in a few years time. I've self studied and managed three exams a year while holding down a good paying but dull IT job. I've also found my certs knowledge has got me into networking and SQL server projects I would not have been considered for in the same job.

Its tougth but once you achieve a certain level, guard your certs by keeping them up to date and never get caught out by the skills trap again.

A lot of people knock certs but if you don't have the opportunity to learn while you work due to job description constraints, office politics or available systems, they are a good way of getting an understanding of the basic tools to do the job.

Dazed and confused

 

[slightlydissatisfied]

Its quite deflating, but I think you're right Skittle. I don't think the bootcamp would be a waste of time - the folk I was looking at have a 95% pass rate and their bootcamps are much longer than others (50 days for the MCSE) - however as you say I'm not sure how much of that knowledge I'd retain. And I would be out of a job for a while too which wouldn't help.

I'd just like to find a balance where I can work well at work, in a progressive, encouraging, learning environment, but then come home and do all the things I enjoy outside of work. Working to live rather than living to work. Guess thats what everyone wants really though.

Better go or I will be late for the job I already have (again). Thanks again for the sensible advice (even though it wasn't quite what I was hoping to hear).

 

[BIGALINWALES]

You say that you work well under pressure when you have to work, in that respect you're the same as me. What I've started doing is booking the exam for about a months time and then I'm forced to study. If I don't I lose £80 and that's not money I can afford to waste!
The only problem with that is you can very easily reschedule the exam for later.....a bit of will power will stop you doing that though!

Good Luck,
Alex

 

[NickFerrar]

50 days?! I was wondering why you couldn't just do it on vacation.

If you have good experience (I'd say at least 3 years and probably 5+) then bootcamps can be good things if your goal is just to get certified.

Personally I've done MCSE 2003 (14 day, 7 exams) and Exchange 2003 (5 day, 2 exams) bootcamps and I'd highly recommend them for experienced people looking to get certified.

I actually had more lab time on my bootcamp than any standard MS course I've been on, what you don't get is chance to chat about real-world issues you've encountered etc. And if you don't understand something after a couple of attempts the instructor will take it offline so as not to slow down everyone else. It can be intimidating but I think most people suprise themselves how well they adapt (you sound very similar to me in that you're naturally lazy but cram well).

So personally my advice would be do a bit of self-study, get familiar with the basics (especially DNS and AD, understand those well and you're 50% of the way there) and then look at a more intensive bootcamp you can do on paid vacation at your current job (I did mine with thetrainingcamp.co.uk but they have US camps to).

The hours are crazy and if you've every done a standard MS course (I'm always dozing off on them just after lunch) you probably won't believe you could stay awake for 10-12 hours of instructor-led stuff each day but you'll suprise yourself. they are highly polished in switching teaching format and topics regularly and the only time I ever lost focus at the MCSE bootcamp was when they played the offical MS videos for a couple of subjects.

 

[slightlydissatisfied]

Thanks Nick, Alex. Yup, 50 days. They have a fast track course of half that time or less, if you already know your stuff. The nice thing is that because its India its far more affordable than your average bootcamp, but the training is (supposedly) still very good quality.

I think I'm going to try the self-study thing again to begin with (booking my first exam for around mid October so I have a definite date to work towards. I find self study difficult, but on a sunny evening after work almost impossible, so will factor that in). I will probably start with SQL Server since that's the area in which I'm currently strongest. At the very least it will give me a head start if I do go with the bootcamp next year.

Thanks again for your help guys, appreciate the comments/advice.

 

[schase]

Interesting thread - I myself am a poor book learner, I force myself to study every night for a couple hours and as much as I can on weekends. I havn't had a life for quite awhile now. My friends and family are like - hey relax up a bit enjoy life. But my view is the faster I get it done - then I do not have to worry about it later.

I personally would be afraid I'd loose retention after a boot camp. but everyone learns and retains just a little different than everyone else.

If I were to contemplate it for myself I'd have to agree with Skittle and tfg13. But you say you cram well, so Nick's thoughts may work great for you.

Stuart

 

[slightlydissatisfied]

Thanks Stuart - I think part of the problem I have with self study, is that there seems to be no end to it. It would take (for me anyway) at least a couple of years of working hard at evenings and weekends, to self-study to an MCSE. In the meantime, technology has changed a little, Microsoft have brought out another Windows server edition, and what was the hot technology when I started studying, has been superceded by something else. Do I then 'update' my skills by continuing to study towards the next edition?

I know this is a simplistic view of things. All studying and learning is good, and if you have your MCSE on Win 2000, or MCDBA on SQL Server 2000, it won't take a hell of a lot to update your skills to 2003/2005. Also, 'older' technologies still stay highly in demand for many, many years after their first use. I think its the psychology of it that I find difficult, the fact that even as you are slogging your guts out for the newest technology, a newer and better one is already being developed / released.

Wheras with bootcamp, a few weeks and hey presto, you're certified on the newest and shiniest Microsoft technology. Anyhow, back to the self study for me for a while and I will see how things go.

 

[tfg13]

Well, you have a point about the seeming never ending updates. However, it should be pointed out that attending a boot camp doesn't make you certified. You still have to pass the tests on your own.

One thing you should take into consideration, is that once you learn a certain subject, such as 70-270, you are almost half way there. The technologies will still apply to other tests. For example, joining a domain is the same for XP, and W2K3 server. Okay, I'm being rudimentary, but it is true. Each of the subjects will build on the next, giving you a chance to understand each....

Great point about "older" technologies. I'm still working on Windows 2000 systems, with no upgrade in sight. Not all businesses have the money to upgrade to the next version. The price for Microsoft may be reasonable, but the application would require an upgrade (which can require huge amounts of cash, (my current situation)).

Just take it one day at a time. Learn as much as you can. Find a friend or family member who is interested in the same things and study together.....

 

[schase]

And to add to tfg's post, the Microsoft & Cisco certs - by nature require upgrades. CompTia are the ones that are lifetime certs.

And your right about the 2 years - thats about as long as I've been on it. Course it's my own fault, I havn't always had a level of discipline that I need to have. Girlfriends, etc. Heck sometimes you just get tired of studying and want to take a night off.

It certainly is not easy. Course it's not meant to be.

Stuart

 

[Skittle]

Much of it depends on your own learning style.
From these this thread it's clear different people like to learn in different ways.

You could always consider doing the first few on your own and then the rest on a boot camp or visa versa.

Thew new technology thing is a real pain. When I started my MCDBA I knew SQL 2005 was only a year away but I decided that the upgrade option would be there for me and I didn't want to wait a year before getting started on certs. I'm now looking at the MCDBA upgrade exams.

Another thing to consider about the long hours of extra work to get certified is that no job will ever be perfect. You could get a job without the grief of self learning but the pay could be lousy, you could have to do a lot of driving or you could be in a shop standing up all day. At least with IT ( I figured ) once you have got past the mountain of the MCSE or MCDBA, it's much easier to upgrade and keep up to date. Just taking two exams every two or three years ( hopefully ) to upgrade sounds like heaven after self studying 3 a year for the last two years.

Remember though, certs are not a gurantee of a dream job, but they may well get you an interview and a foot in the door depending on the employeer.

Incidently - I did the trainingcamp MCAD in the UK.
I found it very tougth - but I just had a little prior VB6 programming so I was at a big disadvantage. It's a bit crazy. They work you from 0800 to 2030 and then need you to read until midnight. Even meals are just 30 minutes.







Dazed and confused

 

[NickFerrar]

Bootcamps and retention gets raised a fair bit (as a negative point about bootcamps) but my experience is whether I learn via self-study, official MS courses or bootcamps is irrelevant to my retention. Retention is based on how obvious the thing is (i.e. common sense) and for more obscure things how frequently I use them real-world.

 

[slightlydissatisfied]

I think once you have had to learn something, i.e. for an exam, much of the information stays with you to some degree at least. I did my MCP in VB6 about 2003 and have forgotten much of what I learned simply because I don't use it much anymore. However, when I do have to do odd bits of coding I find that a lot of what I learned does slowly come back to me. I think its much, much easier to revise something that was once there (even if it was crammed in) than to learn something from scratch that you've never known.

I think a part of my aversion to self-study is that I studied towards my MCP when IT was going through its post-dotcom slump - I had naively thought that all my hard work would make me eminently employable (was also going through a very fed-up phase at work), but it didn't make a blind bit of difference. Fortunately I think things are much better these days.

I hadn't really thought through the concept of overcoming the initial hurdle(s) of the first big certification(s) then having an easier time from then on, but that makes a lot of sense. Had really just seen self-study as an endless process, but a couple exams every couple years really is no big deal.

I was going to mention the effect of age on employability, but I think that's probably a whole new topic (and much discussed elsewhere).

I have actually been feeling more positive about my current job, just by virtue of deciding to study again. Although the job has its drawbacks, if I can give myself more challenge by studying/sitting exams outside of work, I'll also feel that I am slowly moving towards something better.

 

[wasisnt]

Im doing the self study route with books, videos and practice tests. Its been taking me about 2 months per test to get it done so far.

What about taking classes at a college or community college a couple nights a week? Most of the time you get the hands on lab experience to go with it.

MCSE NT 4.0, MCP (2003), A+ & Network +

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