CCTV cabling 5

[mikeydidit]

This is looking like something I am going to have to deal with and thought I would see what you are using.

I was asked to spec out some cables to install a CCTV camera out on a light pole. The close cameras that are not going outside, i use the same cabling that I do for networking. Run these back to a POE board in our switches and be done with it.

But this is going to be for an outside camera, so it will need to be outdoor rated. Also this may need electric with it for a heater and a blower. One of our staff engineers mentioned a Siamese cable that has two number 16 awg. cables one on each side for this. All of the cables I have found have PVC jackets, and are jelly filled which is a major No NO within the hospital. Or anywhere really if it is not terminated within 50 feet of the entrance.

I have heard they make fiber with this same setup {Siamese cables) with the electric attached. But this would require a fiber to Ethernet converter. These are exspensive..

Is their a better way? How do you handle this type of install? What would you use on this??

Thanks as always for your time and replies.



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[daronwilson]

I've missed the insanity, good to see that the discussions are still going!

Often there is a clear desgined solution, and then several options for after the fact, retrofit installations. If you are stuck with one conduit, i'd stick with non conductive fiber and get AC power at the pole for the camera blower and heater if needed. Ideally, you always want to protect your fiber with innerduct, but in reality, that stuff is not as fragile as what the tried to convince us of. I'd comfortably pull a 6 strand indoor/outdoor in with some #10's for power and never worry about it. The risk is crushing, which is not going to happen in the pipe that way unless it takes on water and freezes. Yes, i've seen that freeze enough to stop the flow of data, wierd.

I wouldn't get hung up on the 295' at all, the standard was 100 meters (330 feet) and that was before all the cabling enhancements. The change from 330 to 295 was a clarification to allow for patch cables on each end and still meet the overall distance requirement. I've done video IP cameras on 400 feet of Cat6 with no issues, it's different than asking the link to meet 100 mbs or Gig standards.

One has to use a little common sense on jobs that might fall outside the standards a bit. Of course if you customer insists on the standards, it's a different story.

Good luck, lots of good ideas!

Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
Solving 'Real World' problems

 

[wires]

YEA!!! Daron's back!!!!

Member Last Reply Votes*
daronwilson 16 Sep 07 86

Almost 2 years bud, glad your OK!

Its a lot quieter around here these days. Maybe everything is now wireless but they forgot to tell us...

 

[SYQUEST]

What about using wireless for the data?

Would that simplify the installation?

Then you would only be concerned with providing power for each location. You could have a few strategically placed WAPs for coverage.

....JIM....

 

[Servamatic]

Depending on the client, wireless for security cameras may not be allowable.
I think the best appraoch is to do some calculations for voltage drop once you know lengths and determine if POE will work, you may be surprised.
If you need to go fiber then an OSP loose tube OFN would be the way to go in the conduit with power if only one conduit is available.
Use cameras that you can plug the fiber directly into so you dont need an extra electronic device in the parking lot. One less point of failure as mentioned earlier.

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[mikeydidit]

It is good to see you on here Daron. I don't know why, but when I posted this I had a feeling you would join in and once again guide me down the right path. You and Richard had a way of doing that years ago and had a dramatic impact not only on me, but now our campus infrastructure. You guys made time to show me the "Right" (and other ways that were right and work) way to do things. This thread should show you that it stuck.. I am still trying to. So you both should be proud.

Now that I have buttered you up you think pulling in electric with a fiber would be best if it gets outside of the range of UTP? I would not have a problem using cameras with a fiber connection, but the GBITS on the switches are high and you would also have to order special boards to hold several GBITS. This is a very expensive method.

If the cameras have enclosures (I haven't laid my hands on one yet) then the fiber converters (as wires pointed out) are fairly inexpensive. A lot cheaper than the ones i bought years ago. This would also allow me to use regular 10/100 ports in the telecom rooms. Power to be provided separately. And the converters placed in the enclosures patch cables protected from the elimates.

Sounds good in theory?

Again if nothing else happens with this thread, its good to see you two come out of the closet (no pun intended). Well maybe a little.

When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[Servamatic]

Thank you Mike, always nice to hear you have been able to provide a little guidance and it is appreciated.

I was wondering if Daron was still around, interesting we both re-appeared about the same time....

As for the GBIC's, you can still use a converter inside when you transition and go to copper, but with a fiber camera, you only need 1 converter. This may save a buck, since I am on the design side my pricing knowledge is not always as current as I would like.

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[wires]

The cameras I have seen with built in fiber interfaces are not IP cameras. Instead they use some manufacturer protocol to transport image and control data to a indoor unit. Some like the Vicon Surveyor series have the ability to emulate other protocols. Be aware that some cameras with TP interfaces work the same way. Not all CCTV cameras with network looking interfaces are IP cameras!

Since you are at the beginning of a project and are looking for a BIG picture view it might be a good time to consult a professional in the CCTV business.

 

[RikRodgers]

One thing to interject here, and I do have a few customers using them, is when you put a media converter in a outdoor enclosure to run an IP camera, that is a potential point of failure.

The on site IT staff really don't want to trudge out to a box in the middle of nowhere to see if a converter is blown, or has power. If you do use a mm fiber to copper converter, expect to get called out in the winter and after storms.

 

[wires]

If you do use a mm fiber to copper converter, expect to get called out in the winter and after storms."

I have never seen a converter fail. They are very simple devices. Much simpler than a IP camera, especially if the camera has PTZ mechanics. If something happens to to the converter it is actually more likely the same something will happen to the IP camera.

I have talked several techs through basic troubleshooting to fix problems they blamed on media converters. Since they didn't understand converters or fiber in general the fiber link "had to be the problem". It never was. I have yet to replace a media converter except for 10->100 upgrades.

I would ask, what direct experience anyone here has with media converters failing?

Think about what happens when a camera outside up on a pole, connected by COPPER to YOUR NETWORK, gets hit by lightning. Can you say BOOM to your network? Actually it doesn't even require a direct hit since even a nearby hit can induce a substantial surge into any copper in underground conduit. Sounds like being called out after storms for substantially more damage than checking a media converter...

Fiber is your friend. It should be used whenever network devices bridge grounding systems or actual grounds like poles. That would include buildings with multiple electrical entrances unless you can verify correct bonding.

It is obvious to me that we have not heard from any experts on CCTV systems. I know for a fact that all "big boy" outdoor CCTV systems have been fiber for over 10 years. They certainly weren't IP back then, a little research shows they are not IP over the fiber now.

To do this right is going to cost some money. Servamatic is correct when he says "you really need to start with the camera". The proper thing to do is get a CCTV expert or two to look at your site for consultation. Most likely they will spec fiber cameras that convert to IP interfaces inside the building. These will be $$$ but cheaper in the long run because they are designed for the purpose. Additionally as the number of cameras grows you will need a better CCTV management system than a web browser manipulating individual cameras. This is another area of expertise that a larger CCTV vendor can provide.

Sorry is I sound a little pissy but I don't think some of you guys are thinking this problem through but instead just shooting from the hip on media converters.

 

[mikeydidit]

Wires thank you for the well thought out, in depth post you made. It makes since. Although I am not responsible for our network I am responsible for all network connectivity including our fiber backbones. The other group that is responsible for our network doesn't have a clue, so I try to do what I can to protect them/their equipment. But this is probably no different from most places.

When it comes to hooking something up, its left to me to figure it out. That is what prompted this thread (and many others through the years) to find out what is the best way.

I have other people here that make the decisions on "what" devices are bought, but then its up to me to connect whatever the little jewels may be. You know engineers know all about IP, Cameras, telecomm/networking, ANSI/TIA/EIA standards,the number of moons circling unknown planets in uncharted galaxies, everything. But then someone has to make it work. I am sure you guys have "never" had to deal with this either.

I did forward this to one of my vendors who does have an CCTV specialist. I hope to get his input of this soon. Should be interesting to see how close or far off the mark we are on this one.

Thanks again for everyone's time and replies on this.

When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[Servamatic]

You might find some interesting reading on this page:

http://www.security-int.com/companies/optelecomnkf.asp

Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net

 

[RikRodgers]

wires, I respect your opinion, but I'm just relaying my experience.

When it comes to security cameras, I'm a fiber guy. I always prefer fiber cameras over copper/IP, though these have their place.

The problems I've had with media converters outdoors have usually been related to loss of, or surge of 110v power to the enclosures.

I'm in Michigan, and in the dead of winter, the last thing the network administrator wants to do is take a shovel and dig out a box buried under 4 feet of snow. I get called for a reported "fiber issue". It never (well, rarely) is.

You are right, I am not exclusively a CCTV installer, but I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

 

[jeffbouldin]

Well I'm a couple of months late but let me throw in my experience. I am a CCTV expert. I've been installing, servicing, and designing systems for 15 years. In the last couple of years with the advent of Mega-Pixel cameras I've been learning the IP based CCTV systems.

First point, all outdoor cameras need heater\blowers\sunshields to have a longer life expectancy. Depending on the area you are in will determine what combination of these you need and whether you need extreme versions of them. You need to look at the current specs on the housing you are using to determine its current draw, this as well as the distance from the power supply will determine the gauge of wire you need for power. For traditional cameras outdoors I prefer the power supply at the pole it is mounted on. This also simplifies servicing the camera later. If it is a PTZ dome then most of those can pull up to 4amps at 24VAC. The Specs for the Pelco Spectra IV SE call for 10 gauge at no more than 95 feet. So try to get the power close. If you are using one of the newer bullet or dome styles just look at there current draws to make sure you get the wire runs correct.

Second point, ALWAYS run fiber when it is going underground into your building. It is more expensive up front but will save you $$$$$$$$$$$$ during the next storm season. Almost everyone of our customers that does not head our advise regrets it later. We have also learned that the old saying that lightening never strike twice is dead wrong. If a customer gets hit one time we almost always can expect to go out over and over. And it is almost never a direct hit. I cannot think of anytime that the lightening hit the pole. Lightening hits close by and the copper underground pulls it in through your equipment. It is bad enough to lose a few cameras and a DVR. If you go with an IP solution think of that hit going through all your switches. Fiber is the ONLY TRUE surge suppressor. All of the greatest copper surge suppressors can only protect to a point, and only if installed correctly which in my experience requires a company that only does suppression.

I would strongly suggest that you find a local company to help you through these decisions and be there to back you up with ongoing maintenance.

 

[mikeydidit]

Thanks for chiming in Jeff and it is appreciated. I still have not written in the campus spec's on this yet, although the project they had me working on has been planned out exactly like your post.

After running some of the concerns that have been posted they didn't seem to mind the idea of a separate power source. They (the higher up's) also didn't seem to flinch when I said that fiber would be the best method to use.

This has to be one of the first times I have actually seen them spend a little more to do it right the first time.

Well again thanks for your input. I am sure you can help a lot of us out as we have projects that come up.

When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594