Cabling Forum 7

[mikeydidit]

Let me start this thread in response to some complaints that I have been seeing. First of all, You guys make this forum. I hope this helps in getting this forum back on track.

This (the cabling forum) has changed a lot from where I first joined. But I cant say that’s it all bad changes that has happened. When I joined we had several RCDD’s that were in here (their still on the top of the cabling tip master MVP list). It seems that we have slipped away from “this is the proper way to do it” to “you can do it like this and it will work“.

I have learned a lot here after being thrown into the data side of the house. I was at one time way in over my head and several people here bailed me out on more than one occasion. How thankful I was ( I still am) to have some place to turn to for professional help. Now I try to give back and help others with the patience I was given as a “newbie”.

I am not saying in the least that there is only one way to do anything, but there are better and approved ways to do things. Especially in the data cabling side of the house.

I think I am like most of you in the fact the most of my work is from someone else’s mess that I have now got to fix. If they knew the “right” way to layout and design a closet or cabling paths, I would have a lot less to do.

As for a moderator, don’t look for it. Management would like for us to be adult enough to keep our threads on a “technical nature”. It is healthy to not necessarily agree with everything that everyone has to say, but if it gets to the point of arguing the point from the OP and technical nature has been lost.

Arguing has lost (IMHO)some of our most valued members. Please keep this forum and your answers technical and help others. That’s what we are all here for. And occasionally get help from others. If we all work together on this here and now we can make this forum better than it has ever been.


Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[wires]

Disagreements (arguments) are healthy. When people have to defend their methods and beliefs it requires them to document and attempt to convince others.

What isn't healthy is the "my way or the highway" approach that tends to be used here. If you go back to the thread on patch cables thread575-1082060 DTSMAN made a great observation:

DTSMAN (TechnicalUser)
20 Jul 05 15:40
This paticular forum use to be so different a year ago before, as Daron said arrogance came in and started condecending to everyone. It use to be a good place to find work arounds and not be insulted for it. "Sorry Mr. Customer, I can't do the job unless you do it the $2500.00 way". Yea right..

Bo

Kentucky phone support-
"Mash the Kentrol key and hit scape."

If you keep looking you will notice that Daron (who I miss VERY much) changed his tag line to:

Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
Solving 'Real World' problems

We lost Servamatic soon after that. While I miss anyone as knowledgeable as Mr Anderson I don't miss his high handed approach. That same sort of approach is creeping back in with comments like "as Ive stated before , crimp away if you like , makes more work for the rest of us to clean up". Stuff like that makes me less than interested in taking my time to share my knowledge.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that many posts are taking on a "text message" quality. I am a bit of an old fart but this type of post tends to be less than thoughtful. If you really think you are right take the time to research your position and defend it. No insults required.

While standards have their place they are not the answer to all questions. If you simply want to know how to do things "by the book" then go out and buy the book. This forum is a place to SOLVE PROBLEMS.

I am going to end with the same comment I ended the fateful "patch cables" thread since I believe the issues are the same.

Don't worry about it. This forum is considerably more respectful than most of the internet.

Ask whatever you want about things pertaining to wire. I have seen some very good information passed around here. For example a recent thread introduced me to the VisiPatch system. A little googling (which usually expands the mind) and I may use their 110 blocks on my next project where the customer is not "cost sensitive".

Personally I have a problem when people give stars to comments like "hire a pro" since that sort of posting requires little knowledge. Far better (and worthy of stars) are responses that outline the job requirements so even if the original poster decided to hire a pro he would have an idea of what to look for in a quality job.

If I have offended any one here I am sorry. I cut my internet forum teeth on newsgroups and believe me this is Sunday School compared to those...

peace...

 

[mikeydidit]

I too miss servamatic and Daron wires which is part of the reason I started this thread. It got out of hand with those two. I would like to see this turn around and not loss others like you, skip and jimbo just to name a few.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[bwtc]

I'd like to add my 2-cents...

I have been reading this forum for close to 2 years, and have replied to a few threads.

I am not a cabling tech by trade -- I am a systems analyst, who does other work, which may include networking, phone systems, etc.

This forum has been invaluable to me, as I monitor it several times a week, and often get ideas from it.

There are a few other forums where people are quick to ask the same question that has been asked & answered by others, several times -- often within a few week's time.

While this forum hasn't gotten to this point, it would be nice if more effort was put into existing threads for solutions, instead of posting the same question over & over...

These forums are intended to be used by techs -- but they are also open to the public. I greatly appreciate having TekTips as a resource that I can turn to, both to learn, and to hopefully teach.

Much like in some other forums that I participate in (one forum in particular), I hope that more good people do not leave, because of problems with the types of posts, the types of answers, and some peoples' attitudes.

Sorry to vent, but it has not been a good day... :-(

 

[jimbopalmer]

I am not an expert, my BS is in CS and I regard myself as a programmer. In the real world, I do anything more technical than light bulbs. Networking, System repair, DBA, cabling, the fax machine, all fall in my lap as trickier than light bulbs.

I try to relate what has worked for me, and what I would do differently if I could. I have been here 6 years and learned a lot, more than I have helped. Often I can get a discussion going that helps even when I turn out to be wrong. Being corrected just mean I have more to learn.

I tried to remain child-like, all I acheived was childish.

 

[DTSMAN]

Since I was quoted, I guess I'll put in my 2-cents.
The arrogance that was refered too in that old post was that servamatic guy.
He offended me one day when I mentioned using a sharpie to label my jacks and called me unprofessional. He never asked why, because then I could have explained the environment where it works best for me and that I need large lettering for clairity in my industrial environment.
I thought about arguing with him over the next couple of days but while I planned my rebutle, I was able to observe that he attacked everyone while doing nothing constructive but spewing text book crap. I don't miss him. (my 2-cents)

Daron has always had the best advice. ***

Bo

Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)

http://www.redgreen.com

 

[strmwalker]

hey guys everyone of you have helped out on this post
everyone that has looked at this post should note
that.mikeydidit,wires,bwts,jimbopalmer and the DTSMAN.and
i agree with everything said in this one its time to
get back to solving a solution then creating a problem
hell guys everyone of you would be missed here .my
2 cents worth...


strmwalker

 

[dagwoodsystems]

There are a couple of jerks on any forum, and I try hard not to be one of them. We all seem to be wired (pun) or otherwise destined to help others, and are rather passionate about what and how we do that.

Sometimes though, being passionate about our work crosses over into being sensitive about our work. I'm certainly guilty of that. Postings don't often take direct aim at individuals, but it certainly feels that way sometimes.

Often an emotion or other implication can be read into--or rather misread--in someone's post because of the natural disconnect between one's "writing voice" and speaking voice. Let's keep that in mind as we all continue to do what we do best.

And thank you for the post. It's ALWAYS worth taking a minute to do a personal inventory.

 

[GMgerry]

I go away for a couple days and the world is coming to an end.

If there is anyone who knows it all about cable, I can insure you they are not posting here let alone reading what we have to say. This forum is for people that need answers and for the good people with knowledge and respect to answer them. I started in this business 30 years ago when someone asked me to tell them the color code and answered "there is no color code, we are all the same in Gods eyes". He laughed and I almost clocked him until my buddy said no the cable color code. I said "oh that....don’t know it". So I started at the beginning too.

Point is we as experienced professionals should be proud to help the ones in need, not act pompous and degrading. I have spent not only the past 30 years teaching telephony but learning it also.

 

[pbxn]

With any sort of forum or blog, as mentioned sometimes the intent of the response is lost or misinterpereted. Sometimes people's ego's take a hit when they are sometimes advised to go seek professional help, those comments are intended to degrade that person, but more or less say, hey this is a forum, your issue is far more detailed than some text on a forum can assist you with. With respect to cabling, and the industry itself, there are a few types of tech's out there. Those that strive to follow guidlines/codes and standards, and those that just assume lay the cable on top of the ceiling tile becuase well there's just not alot of people up there especially their customer's. There are also those that do not fully understand guidelines/standards and codes that come here for help, and from what I have seen there are plenty of well versed experienced folks here more than willing to help out, that is if their audience has an open ear.
Bottom line all new comers need realize that the folks here are here to help and offer suggestions, and not to bash them because they do not know everything there is to know about cabling. And most importantly some need to also realize that we as peers, if I could use that term, are volunteering our time and knowledge to better this industry as a whole. Phew that's alot to type so early in the day.

 

[DigitelD]

I don't contribute much to this forum but I like to read through it. The forums that I do contribute to have changed since I started. It seems that many want to get into the business but have not been taught the correct way. There are many ways of doing things and as I have learned over the years 2 ways can work and both ways be correct. But, there is a right and wrong way to do things. Alot is under the umbrella of right and wrong. I have been on many jobs that I wish the tech that ran the cable knew more than how to get it from here to there. Some techs just don't know any better. These forums are great to help us learn a better approach to our jobs, to become more effecient and just downright better techs. The problem is some just want to get by.

SHK Certified (School of Hard Knocks)

 

[jeffmoss26]

I used to contribute and ask question on this forum a lot. I was younger and I don't think I got a lot of respect..but also did not know what I do now. I spend the majority of my time on other boards now, namely Sundance Tech Talk. It has always had a much different atmosphere, it is more friendly. I don't want to bash this place, but I have found a lot of great people over on tech talk. I do miss the insights from people like Daron...

jeff moss

 

[dagwoodsystems]

A fine example of what mikeydidit is talking about (if it hasn't been deleted):

http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1357838&page=1

 

[mikeydidit]

Nice job on defusing that dagwoodsystems. You get that many people in one place, and not everyone will get along for sure.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[PhoneGuy2000]

I have had experience doing it the wrong way and then I went to work for a company that insisted on doing it only the right way. I fought it and made all the arguements, and at the end of the day, they were right and I was wrong. Now I only do it the right way, if I can.... Sometimes you are in an impossible situation and you have to use a fix. In a post, a person should offer up the right way and an alternative in case the right way will not be acceptable to a client. There are things that should absolutely never be done, and that can be pointed out.
In the example given above about labelling a cable jacket with a sharpie, there is no CODE against that so it is acceptable. It is not the way to do it according to the STANDARDS, but shoulds and shalls are just that. BTW they do have labellers that have larger fonts and sharpie tends to get seeared, but in some hot environments, labels also tend to unravel and peel off. I would do both.
I don't visit these forums often enough because I let myself get involved in too many things, but itis nice to be able to impart experiences and knowledge to others and I get a good feeling being able to help someone who is where I was years ago. My guess is that most of the people here type their posts in an attempt to not offend anyone. I occaisionally want to slam someones choice of a manufacturer but I hiold my self back. I just try to educate and then leave them to their own choice.
Anyway, my suggestion is to qoute the right way, an alternative way, and a work around you used yourself since you had to.

Larry McNeill, RCDD

 

[Jtodd]

Interesting post.
This is my first time reading this forum in probably close to a year and a half. Mostly because of time constraints and forgetfulness. But I'll have to say that the general purpose of this post also came into play.
I've imparted some wisdom here, and gained more. I'm glad I'm back.

Justin (a "do-it-by-the-book...when you can" guy)

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[mikeydidit]

Good to see ya Justin.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[EddieDuece]

mikey....spoken like a true Washintonian. Great job defusing the issues with this forum. With all the email, texting, and forum chat, it's just too hard to to tell when someone is joking around with you. I am always making comments and trying to keep the mood light, but have to remember that it can easily be misunderstood when doing so in a text fashion. I was brought up to not have "thin skin". As stated, that can be tough when one is passionate about the work they do. I read this forum from time to time just to see what the hot topics are here, and was quite surprised to see this thread! Makes one reflect on oneself a little, and a reminder to treat others as you want to be treated!

 

[edfair]

To think that I've been on Tek-Tips for so long and only found out about this forum because of a link from another forum.

I'll be looking in regularly. Cables and their problems are probably 1/3 of my reason for existance.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[AndyD5]

It seams to me if everyone feels they are right and everyone else wrong communication is lost! Additudinal adjustment needed we work in the "communications" field how can we do so effectively if we can't conduct ourselves as professionals. To insult someone for methods used is obsurd. I carry a sharpie in my pocket at all times I label my jacks my cable and my tools since being an installer often the newbies barrow from the full tool bags. P-touch is used at the final phaze a sharpie even though labeled permanent there are ways of removing it. I absolutely hate crawling under a desk for a jack but if we didn't spend as much time on our knees/back we wouldn't enjoy spending six hours in a 4' x 4' ice box of a closet.