Breaking through the ceiling and rising up the IT food chain 1

[Teknoratti]

I'm finding it a bit difficult to get out of this help desk / tech support role into a more challenging and personally fulfilling IT admin role. I have over 7 years exp in IT but it has mostly been 1st / 2nd level help desk / technical support. I haven't been able to gain any real world exp with security administration which I ultimately want to do. I've done a lot of self teaching and tried to apply some principles at work but nothing in the real world sense of what a sec admin would do on a daily basis.

How have some of you guys risen from from this conundrum?

I am continuing to increase my knowledge but really haven't been able to apply anything. I asked my super at my job for more of a challenging role but it was made clear that although the gesture and willingness to step up to the plate was good, we already have ppl in this role and that I probably won't be anything more than what I am now.

That statement alone is writing on the wall to get the f**k out, but right now this is what pays the bills. So again, how have some of you guys handled situations like this? Have you taken less $$ somewhere else to have the opportunity to do what you want to do?

Thanks

 

[kmcferrin]

I'm afraid that you will have to find a job elsewhere. This can work out three ways:

1. You get hired as a junior-level admin somewhere and get a chance to learn the ropes from more senior people on the team.

2. You get hired into another Tier1/Tier2 support position with a company that actually has room and the willingness to let you move up.

3. You get hired by a small company where the work is 85% Tier1/Tier2 but you get more exposure to admin-level work, which in turn becomes the stepping stone to a job elsewhere as a full-time admin.

If you happen to get a job working for a very large company (with tens of thousands of users) then you might be able to move from department to department to advance, but the unfortunate truth is that in IT you usually advance by hopping from company to company.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCTS:Hyper-V
MCTS:System Center Virtual Machine Manager
MCTS:Windows Server 2008 R2, Server Virtualization
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
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Certified Quest vWorkspace Administrator

 

[mbalent]

I spent five years in help desk roles but was fortunate to be able to learn programming skills along the way. Eventually I was able to get a jr level programming job at a large corporation. I took a 10% pay cut at the time but I have never looked back.

Matt

"Nature forges everything on the anvil of time

 

[hinesward]

There really isn't much I can say that will help you. I can tell you more about what not to do than what to do. I've basically been stuck in the same place for 12 years. And there are guys that are in much better positions who are absolute morons.

Most importantly, don't waste any time with most certifications. Most of them are not worth anything.

Everybody, of course, says that they want experience. Even if you have all this experience, they don't really care. Nowadays, if you experience in Windows 2003 and they want someone with experience in Windows 2008, they will say: "That's not Windows 2008 experience."

Figure out a way to "play around" with the technologies that you want to work with. Learn enough about them that you can do the work.

Then start looking for a job elsewhere and tell them that you have done this work. Employers check on your terms of employment (start date, end date), and that's just about it. You can effectively say that your job duties were anything. Don't say that you have done help desk work, be wary of anyone who asks you about what you have made in a job.

Of course, you should always be wary of anyone who asks you what you made in any job.

Nobody cares about how smart you are. Nobody really cares about how much passion or ambition that you have. They do care that they know how to "play the game." This means knowing how to suck up to people and schmooze them.

 

[mrdenny]

Every company will ask you what you are currently making. This is so that they know how much to offer you.

If you are making 30k they aren't going to offer to 100k. If you tell them you are making 90k they know you aren't going to take 50k to work for them.

The salary will also tell them ball park what your job level is. If you are making 30k a year, you probably aren't a senior level systems admin.

Depending on where you live will determine what they can ask your prior/current employer and what answers those people can give.

Denny
MVP
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[kmcferrin]

I have always told them that my previous salary was for my previous job, with my previous level of benefits and previous responsibilities. What I am interested in discussing with new employers is the job that they want me to perform, the responsibilities of that job, and the benefits associated with that job. For the purposes of negotiation there is no correlation between what you were paid at your last job and what your prospective employer is going to pay you.

I find out what the job entails and tell them what my salary requirements are. Usually they are pretty close to what we actually settle on. For some reason, most people don't negotiate for their salary. The take whatever they are offered. That's fine with me, because if enough of my coworkers accept a lowball offer then my new employer will be able to afford to pay me what I ask for.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
MCITP:Virtualization Administrator 2008 R2
Certified Quest vWorkspace Administrator

 

[hinesward]

I did not know that "every company will ask you what you are currently making." Apparently a lot of the places where I've worked and a lot of the companies that I've interviewed with don't belong to this special group known as "every company."

It's always a major red flag when a company wants me to tell them my "salary requirement." It's an issue which is always going to be brought up eventually, of course. The most honest companies and the best places I've worked took the attitude: "We are looking to offer x--is that acceptable?" Whoever gives a number first loses.

There's nothing wrong with negotiation, especially if you are in a good position where you can do that. Not everyone is in that position.

People on this board may not know it, but there is thing called a recession going on right now. Generally speaking, it's a condition in which a lot of people are out of work and there aren't many job offers going around. In such conditions, most people don't try to negotiate on salary.

 

[Welshbird]

Hinesward - I don't know how it works in the US - In the UK I am generally asked what I'd expect for a job, but if I am asked what I make currently I answer them and I do it truthfully.

When I hand in my P45 to continue to pay my tax from my salary it will list my previous earnings, so there is little point in lying.

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

 

[DTSMAN]

I jumped ship last year. I don't miss IT.
I started out with a 2 year computer degree and went into IT in the POS area. I was pigeoned-hole as well working with POS systems for 15 years at low pay. I went back to school at night and got my BSIT degree. Got an IT job for 10,000 more a year doing field service for a company that serviced small business like lawyer and doctor offices. My pay still doesn't put me where I need to be to pay the student loans and the new gas pricing, etc.
I then found myself with an opportunity as a field engineer for a major medical company servicing automated blood analyzers. Work from home with a company vehicle and gas card plus another 10,000 dollar a year raise.
What I am making now as a field engineer with a van full of parts the IT industry can not touch here in Houston, TX. Here the IT indsutry is badly divided. Specialist, like those in Oracle, Sybase, and other other areas of specialty make the big dollars, and then have a bunch of low paid people under them.
I will continue growing at my current company as I pursue Project Management certifications and not IT certifications, because at my age it would be better suited.

Just food for thought, as IT positions can lead to other places doing different things.

Bo

Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)

http://www.redgreen.com

 

[kmcferrin]

People on this board may not know it, but there is thing called a recession going on right now. Generally speaking, it's a condition in which a lot of people are out of work and there aren't many job offers going around. In such conditions, most people don't try to negotiate on salary.

If you have the right skills and cultivate a reputation for professionalism and excellence then there is always going to be a market for your skills, recession or not. I have gotten a raise every year since I've started working in IT, even during two recessions. I have gotten a raise every time I have changed jobs in IT, even when I was unemployed at the time.

If you are good at what you do and are confident in yourself, you can do the same. If you are simply a cog in the machine that can be interchanged with any number of other cogs, then you will be treated like one.

My company is hiring right now, despite the recession. We get dozens and dozens of resumes for every posting. We have no problem finding candidates these days...what we have problems with are finding qualified candidates (because apparently most of them have kept their jobs).

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
MCITP:Virtualization Administrator 2008 R2
Certified Quest vWorkspace Administrator

 

[kjv1611]

One thing to bear in mind with a recession. It's not going to affect every individual, business, or locale the same. Some areas are affected much worse than others, same with individuals and businesses. It's not always the case that b/c you're "good" that you'll definitely "get the job" or that you'll definitely "get the pay raise." There are many more variables than how good or bad a person is at what they do. However, being good at what you do can certainly help.

Example: Imagine you're an auto worker in Detroit, and the various auto makers are struggling, doing massive layoffs. No matter how good you are, you're going to have a hard time finding another job to replace your level of income, more than likely.

Another example: Say you live in a small area, where just a few big companies employ most people. During a recession like the current one, if those big companies go under, so do most of the jobs with them. Only option there is often to totally change your line of work, often with a pay decrease, sit on unemployment, and hope for the best, or move somewhere else for work.

Anyway, consider the variables before saying something like, "if you're good, you'll have work." I'd say moreso that if you're WILLING to work, you'll have work - maybe not what you want at what pay you want, but there will always be work... so long as there are people. Of course, even that doesn't cover 100%. I mean, there are issues with being overqualified for other jobs as well. I'm practically a nobody, and I've been overqualified for at least 2 or 3 jobs/positions I've put in for over the past 10 or 11 years. I've had a job the whole time, but I didn't get the particular jobs for such a reason.

Employment/work/career, whatever term you want to use, it's always more complicated than what you learn in school, or read from a book, or even what you reason out. Some may get along easily, but it's foolish to think that you get along so well all the time strictly b/c you're good at what you do.

 

[hinesward]

I've learned that everyone who is doing quite well in IT attributes all of their success to themselves. That takes a whole lot of vanity, and it's really one of the few professions in which people do that.

On the other hand, listen to any speech at the Academy Awards. The winner will go on and on about all the people who have helped him or her win the award. You will hear the word _thank_ a lot. You'll hear things like: "I want to thank....", "Thank you....", "I couldn't have done it without...."

If it was an IT person (especially like the ones on this board), it would go like this: "Anybody could have won this award. But I won it. Ha! Ha! I won this award because I am better than all the rest of you. This award is all about how great I am. It's also about how all the rest of you suck. This award is mine, all mine. I am great. I don't need this award to tell me how great I am. I knew I was great anyway. I am great, and don't ever forget it."

I could certainly imagine several people on this board and on this thread giving a speech like that.

 

[hinesward]

And with that being said, it's easy to understand why decent people get out of this profession. I am glad I mentioned the example of the Academy Awards because a lot of the people in that acing business and such really are like that. They are supportive, gracious, and respectful of others.

I remember I took some acting classes back in 2005 and was amazed at just how much better the people there were than the ones I have to put up with in IT. There was little or no attitude. People wanted to see each other succeed.

 

[tcsbiz]

I heard an interesting news item today. Employers in the U.S. are increasingly using credit scores to choose among applicants in tech jobs. I don't know what the correlation is but a lower score may make one less desirable as an employee. I know a brilliant developer who has declared bankruptcy twice in his life. He handles his financial affairs horribly but is brilliant working with technology. His credit score is horrible. Does that make him a bad employee?

 

[hjgoldstein]

Doesn't make him a bad employee, but may make him a bad risk.

People who are prone to financial problems have been shown to be more easily influenced by other than honourable motives.

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[SQLSister]

hjgoldstein - for most jobs this is utterly untrue. If you have no access to ways to steal from the company (ie. you aren't the production dba, or in the finance department) then your credit rating is irrelevant and should not be considered. Even then it is often not a good indicator for many reasons.

If you have been out of work for a year, what do you suppose your credit rating looks like? I have a former co-worker who lost her job at the same time her husband lost his job. Do you suppose they were able to pay all their bills? Suppose your credit rating drop was due to excessive medical bills from your daughter having cancer or from your hunsband leaving you and draining the checking and savings accounts first and running up all the credit cards to their limit. Suppose it was to to error (and there are lots of them) in the credit report. Credit checks tell you nothing about how reliable and trustworthy an empoyee is.
This is needlessly preventing people from getting re-employed and it is a disgusting practice to use on potential employees who do not have fidciary duties or access. This is a truly immoral, disgusting practice.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[JCreamerII]

I concurr with SQLSister, but it is practiced alot today.

Jim C.

 

[kmcferrin]

I second what SQLSister said.

Regarding Hinesward's comments, I fully believe that your ultimate success is attributable only to yourself. There are plenty of people on this board who, in the situation of not having received an Academy Award, would rant for 3 hours about how they got screwed because the director was bad, the script was bad, the Academy was biased against them, or because they weren't willing to play the typically Hollywood schmoozing game.

So if you say that other people and external factors are responsible for the success of an individual, do you also believe that those same factors are responsible for the failures of the same individual? Do you believe that people have no ability to affect the outcomes of their own life?

Speaking specifically to KJV1611's comment, while in a recession (or even a boom) the economic situation and outlook is not the same across the country, there are absolutely still opportunities for people with the right attitude and the right skills. I would encourage anyone who has any doubt to take ownership of their situation and truly take responsibility for their success. That's not just a matter of passing exams or learning new skills, but also learning how the business works, networking and making business contacts, and yes, even relocating to greener pastures if required.

The business world is chock full of screwups. So is IT. All it takes to really stand out from the crowd and be successful is to be competent, work hard and apply yourself.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
MCITP:Virtualization Administrator 2008 R2
Certified Quest vWorkspace Administrator

 

[SQLSister]

JCreamerII, I agree that it is practiced a lot today. But it is poor practice that is not good for individuals, companies or the country. If harms people for things they have no control over. It harms companies because they end of with people who can pass the credit check but may not have been as qualified as those who did not. At any rate it severly reduces their pool of highly qualified people for no valid reason which means that over time they will end up hiring a significant amount of less qualified people and that will affect overall company performance.

Finally it is extremely bad for the country because as most companies do this, it creates a permanent underclass of unemployable adults. Since people need employment to get things like food and shelter, creating an unemployable class will eventually result in more homeless, more crime (people will steal to eat) and more government assistance. This policy benefits no one.



"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[xmsre]

Prepare yourself, wait for the recession to end, then jump ship. I entered the IT market in 98. Following this strategy, If you encounter a ceiling, navigate around it. I quintupled my earnings in a decade.

XMSRE