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Bill Thompson's article in the Register 2

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Oh yes, England is all about freedom of communication [ponder], while we evil Americans just want to enslave all communication. I mean, just look at which country it is where the little van goes through your neighborhood scanning for illegal use of your TV set. No watching TV without paying your TV tax... And yes, a when my sister was living in London, she knew someone who got in trouble just for watching a video. (The van simply scans for CRT radiation, so too bad if you aren't even using that precious resource known as public television)

That was in '90 - 91... do they have a modem tax nowadays, too? And does the computer CRT radiation fool the men in the little van?

Sorry, couldn't resist ;-). Flame if you must. Better yet, correct my misaprehensions. -------------------------------------------

"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
 
The televison licence tax is to pay for the BBC. The BBC do not show adverts (not overtly anyway) and so everyone that owns a TV is supposed to buy an annual licence. I think it is a good idea. The BBC does produce reasonable quality programmes and I'm sure that the licence fee does help to withstand the tide of trash that would overtake us (Who wants to be a millionaire, Big brother, Barney etc etc) They aren't perfect, but are much better than they would be if purely commercial. The TV licence fee also pays for BBC radio which you do not need a licence for and is excellent. There are also plenty of exemptions for the old and poor. I would hate to see the bbc go the same way as US public broadcasting which seem to intersperse bbc programmes with begging for money. I've never personally seen a detector van except in adverts to encourage licence purchase.

It's merely a tax like any other tax. I don't condone tax evasion and I would hope you don't either.

Modems are connected to the telephone system not to broadcast tv, don't see your angle.

Aside from that, you seem to have completely missed the whole point. In fact the tone of most replies has been 'USA is the best, why should anyone not want what we have', which I think backs up what Thompson was saying. Surpisingly the rest of the world doesn't necessarily want to be just like the USA. We want to be like us.

Interesting link. It sounds a complete nightmare to me and I don't see why I should be subject to it. Can't think how these people get voted in.

I've worked in the US a few times and have been impressed by the virtually complete lack of knowledge of the rest of the world. A lot of people I spoke to assumed it was just like the US, but with a different language. How very wrong. Is it correct that when Bush was elected he had not actually been to another country? Astonishing.
Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com

 
peter - In fact the tone of most replies has been 'USA is the best, why should anyone not want what we have', which I think backs up what Thompson was saying. Surpisingly the rest of the world doesn't necessarily want to be just like the USA. We want to be like us.

Its not surprising at all. Its quite understandable that most people suffer from National Pride and believe that their own system, with all of its faults, is best. Just as the last sentence of your paragraph implies, you most likely feel the same way with respect to the UK value systems, and I agree that's how you should feel.

The problem with Mr. Thompson's proposal and methods is that he too fails to see that point. Which of the following two statements is most correct?

The problem with the internet is the existance of a cultural value system that is not my own.

The problem with the internet is the existance of a cultural value system that is from the USA.

Because of his "America Bashing", I can't help feel that he belongs to the second statement. He in essence want to replace the US based value system that pervades the internet with a European value system. If you continue with that logic, then the same article will appear next year, written by a Chinese consultant, replacing America with European, and argueing the need for Oriental values. Does he (or anyone else) honestly feel that the European value system will be accepted on a global scale with any more enthusiasm than an American one? The rest of the world doesn't want to be like us (quite true), but guess what, surprisingly, they don't want to be like you either, they want to be like themselves. As Peter has correctly pointed out, neither system is necessarily better than the other. The problem with the internet is not that the pervasive system came from the USA, but rather that a pervasive system exists at all.

That being said, I agree that some of the issues with respect to the global internet are quite valid, and he makes some good points. But, if Mr. Thompson were serious about addressing these internet concerns, he would get off the "America Bashing" crusade, and focus on the issues. The internet does not belong to the Americans, nor to the Europeans, nor to any other society.

You can take any one of three positions:

1. Anti-American
2. Pro-European
3. Pro International Internet

You can be both 1 and 2 (clearly Mr. Thompson is), but you can't combine either 1 or 2 and honestly be concerned with 3.

The first order of business would be to establish an international "board of governers", with representation from ALL points on the globe, that can begin to reach compromises with and to respect all of the cultural values of the world-wide societies - the worldwide internet community.

PS:
I agree, there are way too many Americans totally naieve about the rest of the world.

and Peter - the most important point - did you see that for the 1st time in history, the USA has broken into the top 10 worldwide FIFA rankings !!! Still a long way to go catch up to England, but at least we're making progress. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Good answer. But I don't think he wants Europeans to take over the world any more than he wants US to.

That's really good news about US football isn't it. I suppose it will get more support in the US now. I'm not really too interested myself except for World Cup and European Cup, that sort of thing. You got as far as we did in the finals didn't you. Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com

 
Relax, guys. I wasn't making a Big Point, just poking a bit of fun. I'm sorry, but I just found the image of the detector van cruising through neighborhoods to be kind of funny.

As for the rest of the discussion, I'm bored with these cultural wars. Each side always jumps to make the wrong assumptions about the other side, Brits included. I am definitely not a "My country, wrong or right", kind of guy, and I actually can point out all the major world countries on a map, without needing the little lines... -------------------------------------------

"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
 
1) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
2) re Each side always... beware generalisations, they are genera;;y wrong. Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com

 
If you find this type of discussion boring, then rycamor, I suggest that you don't become involved.

I, for one, feel that free and open discussions of this nature between professionals are a great way to gain a better understanding of other viewpoints and ideas and increase my understanding of the world in which we live.

You may be able to identify every country on the map, but do you what the people that live there belive in. Do you know what offends them? Could you go to that country and behave in such a manner as to not be disrespectfull of their culture and customs.

These discussions can be a very enjoyable and valuable learning experience. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Yet another star for Cajun! Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com

 
You see, this is a perfect example of a cultural misunderstanding. I, as an American, do not use a little joke to represent the sum total of my feelings on an issue, the culture, whatever. I am actually bored because these discussions don't go deep enough, not because I want to shut out someone else's opinion. I was trying to get each side to beware the assumptions they make, and someone instantly jumped to make assumptions about me.

And I apologize to anyone who was actually offended by my bringing up the British TV thing. I guarantee you that any American who read about at thought it was a little funny, but in no way used it to suddenly label England as a repressive monarchy ;-). I was actually half expecting someone to say that I was mistaken about the TV detector van. Oh, well... are we a little touchy about this?

CajunCenturion, I too believe in free and open debate. I believe it is the essence of life, in fact. I just don't see the need for everyone to take themselves so seriously all the time. I have been witnessing these "east-vs-west" debates for the past 5 years on the web, and everyone acts as if to admit anything lackluster about their own country is a complete defeat. Your culture is not all perfect, whoever you are. I freely admit that about the U.S. So lighten up about defending your country. There are great things about it, and there are some not-so great things.

Question my international sensibilities if you must, but I actually have lived for over a decade of my life outside of the U.S. I have friends of just about every nationality you can imagine (one of the few benefits of living in South Florida.) Also, I have worked in many different businesses, some of which involved international deals (Germany, Italy, England, France, to name a few). I lived a good part of my childhood in South America, and speak spanish fluently, even though it is not my native tongue. The thing I see so often is how quickly Americans get categorized by people from other nations. Each nation has it's own version of what the "typical" American is, and generally they are surprised when they get to know me, because I actually do such crazy things as attempt to learn their language. (Macedonian is my current project).

So, sorry if I upset anyone's rational universe, where all Americans are crass, semiliterate bores. (Yes, those Americans do exist, and tend to end up as politicians, but that is another debate)

I am definitely up for serious debate, if anyone wants to go there. No need for ad hominem attacks, though, please.

As to the cause of this original thread, yes. These are issues we should talk about. Let's really get into it, though. There are reasons why Americans and the English think differently about business, government, freedom, etc... Let's bring up John Stuart Mills, Thomas Malthus, etc... all the old culprits on either side of these arguments. That is a debate I would love.

And please, no more accusing us Americans of the narcissism of thinking everyone should want to be like us. That is quite belittling, and no more true of us than it is of any nationality. -------------------------------------------

"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
 
Some of you may like to see this



Bill Thompson, whose Damn The Constitution polemic we published here , will take to the air on BBC's flagship Newsnight current affairs slot tonight. (10:30PM BST, 2:30PM Pacific Time)

He'll be joined by libertarian icon John Perry Barlow, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

You don't have to have a TV to watch them duke it out: the BBC's NewsNight page carries a link to the most recent program for 24 hours after its broadcast.

But if the shooting war starts, it might be cancelled.

Thanks for your responses to The Stuckist Net - a vision far less optimistic than Bill's, and we'll post a selection later today. ® Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com
 
Now we're talking. I won't miss this one.

Just to get my comments a litte more back on-topic: I do agree with much of Bill Thompson's sentiments about some of the problems with the internet, and the fact that certain forces U.S. are doing some very shifty, distasteful things, treating the internet and digital information as some sort of "eminent domain", simply to offer favors to certain businesses. These corporations, and the politicians they have bought don't have a clue what civil liberties really are, nor do they care. In spite of the power they wield, they are not at the core of what America is really about, and are rarely representative of your typical middle-class American's attitudes. Most of us are as disgusted by these things as the rest of the world.

But it really baffles me to see Mr. Thompson lumping together Libertiarians and free-market thinkers with this sort of behavior. Those corporations and bought politicians are not in ANY way interested in a free market, nor in individual civil liberties. They are interested in power; end of story.

I, as a civil libertarian, find it quite ironic that Bill T. talks out of one side of his mouth about those awful capitalists and their civil liberties, while at the same time maintaining that each country should be free to choose on its own how to connect to the web. Of course! What libertarian would be against that? (only a hypocritical one)

So what I object to is not the complaint of abuses of power, etc... but in how he characterizes the struggle ("Damn the Constitution"? -- the Constitutions's authors are rolling over in their graves from the DMCA and it's like). Let's face it, the U.S. government invented the internet, like it or not. It was a government project in the 60s. But, once it turned into a public force in research and education, it ceased to be a "thing", to be "taken back" by anyone. It is simply a collection of publically available protocols, which anyone can run, whether connected to others or not. Bill Thompson can run his own neighborhood internet for all I care. Run some CAT 5 from house to house, keep out all outside connections, and voilá: it is a private internet, or whatever you want to call it (hoodnet?). Here's another one for you: did you know that you don't have to use the ICANN-controlled internet naming system? There is always AlterNIC, or you can even start your own TLD root server, using any set of name extensions you want. If you can talk other people into pointing their DNS servers to it, then so much the better! In other words, to wind up my wordiness, the internet is a collaborative system. Collaborate to whatever degree you want.

Now I know that unfortunately the clueless politicians don't understand the above concepts, so they try to enact laws to close this supposed Pandora's box. It's not going to work, no matter what anyone says. Too many alternatives out there. So the only discussion worth having about all this is: in exercising their freedom of networking, is anyone violating anyone else's property, freedom, etc... in any way. Those doing so should be stopped, whether they be governments, corporations, hackers, whatever.

I know I mentioned above to avoid ad hominem attacks, but I can't resist this one, because Bill Thompson kind of set himself up for this: on the "about" section of his personal website ( he mentions "In 1995, while I was working at PIPEX, I built one of the first personal pages on the World Wide Web.". HUH!?! I built my first web page in 1995, and as I recall it, building web pages had already become commonplace. I actually considered myself a clueless newbie latecomer because hadn't done one back in '93 or '94. -------------------------------------------

"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
 
rycamor, I am convinced you can make a career out of finding inconsistencies in Bill Thompson's statements. It's obvious we spend more time thinking about what he says than he does.

Interestingly, the site now says here: that he built his first website in 1994. But then such Orwellian behavior is probably not out of line for someone who thinks government control of web content is a good thing. ______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!
 
Wow!! I hope he didn't do that 'cause of little ol' me...

I don't know what to say, here, except that I find this an unsettling statement: "the past is worryingly unpredictable". Whatever could he mean by that? -------------------------------------------

"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
 
Sounds to me like he indentifies a little too strongly with Winston Smith in 1984.

I think we need to watch is future rants to see whether one day he says he loves Big Brother [wink] ______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!
 

How can Europe take BACK the internet when people from the U.S. invented it lock stock and barell. Maybe they could Steal the internet and align with Germany and make all Internet games illegal too.
 
Silly argument. Europeans invented the car. We don't stop the US using them. We invented books, radio, television, railways etc etc. By we I mean non-US countries.
That's Greece not Germany. They are different places you know.
Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com

 
Perhaps Bill Thompson should sample the "Chinese internet" and report back to everyone on how his ideas are proceeding. The irony, in my mind, is that as the DMCA, Palladium, TCPA, Intel's Banias, etc etc proceed, the libertarian among us will likely be looking at China and India as the source for non-Fritzed technology...
-Steve
 
Quote from the reg.

China is able to block sites from its citizens because there are a finite number of internet backbones running into the country, and it has control over all of them. Some US-based search sites that have branches in China are believed to have agreed with the government to pull subversive links or content.

You have completely missed the entire point. It is, presumably, against Chinese law to look at various types of web site. I don't know what sort, it doesn't matter, it only matters that it is against local law.

So why shouldn't the Chinese government uphold Chinese law? You may not like these laws, it doesn't matter three figs, or at least should not because you have no jurisdiction in China.

You wouldn't like the Chinese government to start getting pushy and saying how you must behave and what you must do and not do in your own country would you. Course not.

But with all this DMCA stuff we are getting your laws imposed on us.

Being libertarian does not normally include forcing your ideas on others. Peter Meachem
peter @ accuflight.com

 
Actually I wasn't being sarcastic, I was noting that China was probably closest to what Bill Thompson seems to be advocating. While as an advocate of democracy and all that it entails I deplore the Chinese government's enforced censorship, I do believe that "it's their boat, they can row it the way they want".

And I don't want the DMCA et al forced on non-US people (heck I don't want the DMCA and the like forced on US citizens for that matter). However, in the absence of major border filtering, Thompson's rhetoric is a no-win situation for the US: too much is allowed or too little is allowed, and the level of restriction to other nations is unpalatable no matter what the level is. That being the case, how would you propose to fix the problem? (The question isn't rhetorical, by the way.)
-Steve
 
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