Benefits about Cat 5e vs. Cat 5... 5

[nelsonvelez]

I have a customer that I want to recomend to move all their CAT 5 cabling and equipment to CAT 5e but the only benefit I find is that CAT 5e is good for ATM 622Mhz and Gigabit.

Where I could find more data about benefits of Cat 5e vs. Cat 5?

Please advise...

Nelson Velez

 

[skip555]

what is it thats making them want to upgrade ?


are they having problems with the cat5 that they hope to rectify by going to cat 5e?

 

[copperfiberguru]

nelsonvelez,

You can start by informing your customer that category 5 is no longer a recognized cable by TIA or ISO/IEC. With the release of ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-B.1 Commercial Building Telecommunications Cabling Standard - Part 1: General Requirements, category 5 does have the necessary electrical parameters (FEXT, ELFEXT, Return Loss, etc) to ensure channel performance for Gigabit Ethernet. It is because of this limitation that category 5 is no longer an accepted medium.

Your customer can choose to install category 5 cable in his/her network. However, if you recall it was only a few years ago that the typical network speed was 10BaseT (10Mbps). Presently the majority of networks now being installed are 1000BaseT. Your customer I'm sure will be faced with having to replace their structured cabling far sooner than they may anticipate.

One other aspect to consider is that the cost of category 5 products versus category 5e is practically negligible. If there is a difference, the added cost is well worth paying now than having to re-cable in a couple of years, when your customer tries to run 1000BaseT on his/her category 5 network and is unable to do so.

I hope this helps!


Doug Bond, RCDD

 

[Bobg1]

For new installs yes, just as an upgrade NO WAY...
If someone came to me and made that recomendation, they would be removed from the bidders list.

 

[AvayaNovice]

If your customer is at a point where they're remodeling or something, and the access to rewire their establishment is easier than down the road, then sure -- rewire with cat5e or cat6. However... if rewiring now, or three or four years down the road will be just as easy -- why not wait until they need the higher speed? Don't fix something that isn't broken... as your customer, unless they have a bandwidth intensive application, will not see any improvements.

Upgrade when an upgrade is needed... or when there is a good time to do it, I don't see either here.

 

[copperfiberguru]

Folks,

The bottom line is if you can give me, the customer, a standards compliant, Gigabit Ethernet guaranteed, category 5e solution at basically the same cost versus cat 5, Gigabit Ethernet not guaranteed, system that is not recognized by the standards, then you have earned my business. I, the customer, will no doubt see the value that you are offering. Even if I am still running 10/100BaseT now, knowing I can upgrade to 1000BaseT and not have to replace my structured cabling is a very large value to me. I would gladly give my business to whom ever offers this to me.
"Don't fix something that isn't broken" is not providing a level of service that customers are now looking for in this competitive market.

As contractors, manufacturers, resellers or whatever, we need to educate our customers!



Doug Bond, RCDD

 

[AvayaNovice]

Doug,

I agree that it SHOULD be upgraded considering that advantages; however... if it is just as easy to upgrade three years from now (when the customer may have the need for it) and we've educated the customer that when the need comes, let's do it... then I think it's better to wait.

It's like buying an upgrade to some software where you won't use the advanced features.

My point is that if the cable can be pulled and re-done three years from now just as easily if it were done tomorrow (in the customer's eyes, meaning accessibility to the cable) then why do it now? Why not wait until the customer needs it... and furthermore, by then -- the cost will be less.

My two cents...

 

[copperfiberguru]

My point is this, for example, if the customer wants to lease a Toyota for 3 years and you can give that customer a 10-year lease on a BMW for the exact same cost. Which would you choose?

If the customer knows he has too options: 1. Spend 100K ($$example only) to replace cable with Cat 5 and knows he will have to re-cable in 3 years or 2. Spend 100K on cat 5e and not have to re-cable in 3 years.

To me, that's a no-brainer!

By offering the cat 5e solution you are saving the customer money and the customer will know this. That customer will continue to use your services because you have earned his/her trust. That customer may come to you for other services (product, MACs, etc).





Doug Bond, RCDD

 

[daronwilson]

This is going to vary from customer to customer.

I have customers that have replaced wiring several times, it started in the Cat3 days (even have a few that demanded Cat4 during that window) then Cat5, then Cat5e and now Cat6. For the most part, they are all still on 100 mbs ethernet. For the most part, they wasted quite a bit of money.

On each upgrade, I asked the same question, why do you want to change? The answer was usually 'because there is something better'. Being from the old school for the most part, I learned that the customer is always right (usually). My role is to provide the customer with accurate information, education and solutions and let them select which ones to invest THEIR money in. It is not my role to choose for them, but to guide them through the process.

If the customer calls and wants me to 'upgrade' their network, I'm listening because that is my role. If I present the pros and cons to them and they determine that they want a better product even though they may not use it for awhile, then I'm happy to provide that. I feel I can sleep at night knowing that they made an informed choice and I'm not selling them a bunch of crap.

I've turned down jobs going the other way however, where the customer wanted a new place wired with Cat3 for example. In the long run for me, it's not worth putting my name on a substandard installation because sooner or later someone will say 'Ah, I see who did this shoddy work".

Most customers I've dealt with like the options to choose from. I can't agree with Doug that all customers are going to appreciate getting a more expensive standards compliant system ready for growth. In my market, being $2k cheaper for a Cat5e vs a Cat6 installation gets me the job almost every time. Much like buying a PC, if you go get the bestest one right now, next year you'll be upgrading video cards and the like our technology is changing vary rapidly.

We really need to look at the history a bit and ask our selves what the actual usable life of a structured cabling system is. A few short years ago it wasa Cat5, that was going to do everything for us, we did everything with Cat5 and the customer thought that would cover them forever. Here we are now and it's not even standards compliant. For those that were really concerned we ran multimode fiber. Surely that would cover everything they needed. Now we find that we may need a different grade of mulitmode or maybe 50 micron to meet some specific speed and specs. SO, I suggest carefully weighing what we install, there is a cost break at some point, and maybe it's better to install a 5 year type system, planning on upgrading to the new Cat84 or whatever when it comes out in 5 years and be current then.

In new construction I am much more concerned with pathways and raceways. A well designed installation has raceways in place that allow a rather painless upgrade. Because, folks, we are going to upgrade at some point. And when we do, having the raceways in place to do so is critical.

In summary, I think it is our role as engineers, designers, and installers to provide the customer with the most cost effective solution for the current and future needs. Almost all the customers can tell us their current needs, almost none of them can tell us their future needs. My general recommendation is to provide raceways for the cabling, and provide the customer with a couple options starting at minimally standards compliant and ending up with a 'futureproof' proposal.

Good Luck!

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[AvayaNovice]

Hold the phone Doug...

The customer ALREADY has CAT5 cabling. This is for an upgrade from CAT5 to CAT5E -- not a choice between putting in CAT5 or CAT5E. Customer already has CAT5.

That's my point, don't upgrade until it's needed.

If it was a choice between installing CAT5 and CAT5E -- always go with the standard and the most usable within economic reason.

 

[copperfiberguru]

Avaya-

Thanks for navigating me back to the point!

Cat 5 vs. Cat 5e:

Cat 5 = 100Mhz, 1000BaseT not guaranteed

Cat 5e - 100Mhz, 1000BaseT Guaranteed!

As Daron stated you need to feel out what the customer wants to do now and in the future. Cat 6 may also be on the table.

Humbly...

Doug Bond, RCDD

 

[daronwilson]

This is an interesting example:

My point is this, for example, if the customer wants to lease a Toyota for 3 years and you can give that customer a 10-year lease on a BMW for the exact same cost. Which would you choose?


In 5 years the customer is going to be watching all the new 'Toyotas' go by and saying hmm, maybe I should go get one of those. Oh wait, no, I have to keep this for 10 years to get my money's worth so I can't upgrade.

The issue here is lifespan of the product and a glass ball into the future. We don't know what is coming in 2 years, hell it may be #12 string that is the cool product. Could be coax, that stuff has much more bandwidth than any of the UTP products. Any business (bean counter) will tell you they need to determine value over a period of time.

Yes it makes us more money everytime we cable, but frankly I'm not in it for that. I want to build solid customers who call me back. When I can sell them a solution that meets their needs and not oversell them, I have made a happy customer. Nothing is harder to sell (in my opinion) than coming back 5 years later to the same group of decision makers and explaining why the wizbang system I sold them 5 years ago and told them it was good for expansion .... won't do what they want to do now.

Again, get the infrastructure in so it is easy to upgrade when it is necessary (slightly before if you are lucky) but don't just upgrade because there is a new kid on the block.

Good Luck!

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[mikeydidit]

I believe that I may be in a little different environment than some of you, so my prospective may also be different. On our campus, I pretty much lay out all of our new buildings that are under construction, as well as take care of the old buildings that have been here for years. I was handed the task of network cabling after it outgrew the knowledge (and closets) of our IT group. Since then I have tried to stay compliant by gradually upgrading our closets off 66 amphinal blocks and migrating to Cat5 patch panels. When Cat5E was established and I felt confident that the Cat 5E products that were on the market were reliable, and trouble free. I then made the switch to all Cat 5E. Our IT department recently asked me if the cabling we were using was suitable for gigabit Ethernet. I have seen our cabling infrastructure change about 6 times since I have been here. If I have to install something for someone I want it to be something that will last at least 3 years, which I feel Cat5E will. Installing something that is already behind on the standards, and I feel will be soon obsolete, just doesn’t make good business since to me. Things are changing everyday, and not only in the networking world but now on the telecomm side of the house. I have recently found out the processors of my G3R telephone system and the voicemail system that I have will all be on network cabling or fiber in the next 3 to 5 years and be mounted in a relay rack. In my opinion, it is important to stay at least somewhat current or you will be at a point one day where you will have to upgrade everything at once.


Mikey

 

[Bobg1]

Back at nelsons original question
"I have a customer that I want to recomend to move all their CAT 5 cabling"

Note he said he wanted to recomend, NOT they are asking for,
If you were to manage to sell them on this and they found out they really didn't have to, you end up loosing. Thgis would not be the proper way of trying to get business.

 

[jimbopalmer]

I suppose the most responsible way to help a customer realize they have a need for Cat 5e over cat 5 (although I wonder why you would not be going to Cat 6) would be to help them read their error logs in their switches and routers. If indeed they are having errors trying to do 100/full or gig, then they can see that newer infrastucture would sovle a real problem they might not have known they have.

(I installed much of my plant in early 1992, meaning cat 5 wire was available but cat 5 faceplates and patch panels were not, much of my plant still runs this odd mix of cat 4 and 5. reading the error logs in my switches, about 1 port in 50 cannot do 100 full reliably, and are set to 10 meg Should gig to the desktop be needed before we knock down the building in 8 years, I will need new infrastructure)

I tried to remain child-like, all I acheived was childish.

 

[RandyVSP]

I went thru this in broadcast radio years ago...everything changing so fast, it was hard to keep up....

It would vary from customer to customer, but sit down with them, take a look at what they want, need, and expect to need, then lay out the options....My experience is that the monkeys in the decision process know little more than what their computer / network monkey has picked out, often the "dream setup" then when the beancounters get things, they go for the bargain basement solution....

Never exactly what they wanted, but just close enough!

In this example, maybe to try to jump a process of levels needed, propose CAT5E versus CAT6....even tho I dont see CAT6 on my radar....then again, the "data dummies" always surprise me.......

Randy