I am wondering if you guys have opinions/ideas on how to work around the issue of employers that make us install software we know they don't own or have a right to use. In these days, nobody can afford to lose their job. But I also want to cover my own behind you know? I do not like having to install "illegal" software, but how do I tell my employer this without losing my job?
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Avoiding unlicensed/cracked software while keeping your job 10
- Thread starter CostaRica
- Start date
<rant tone="sarcastic">
Just a note to the large group of people that believe that MS product use is 100% by choice,
Please let me know when you build an open source, free, Manufacturing Data Historian, API and SDK, and associated analysis tools and actually convince the major manufacturing hardware vendors (GE, Siemens, etc or the Moore, ABB, etc companies) to support it, so that way I can stop deciding to use MS Windows Nt4 SP6 or Windows 2000 SP2 or SP3 (if you have the right patches) with specific versions of office as well as MS VB6 and MS C++.
*sigh* I must be crazy to decide to use a non-free unsupported operating system...
</rant>
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Just a note to the large group of people that believe that MS product use is 100% by choice,
Please let me know when you build an open source, free, Manufacturing Data Historian, API and SDK, and associated analysis tools and actually convince the major manufacturing hardware vendors (GE, Siemens, etc or the Moore, ABB, etc companies) to support it, so that way I can stop deciding to use MS Windows Nt4 SP6 or Windows 2000 SP2 or SP3 (if you have the right patches) with specific versions of office as well as MS VB6 and MS C++.
*sigh* I must be crazy to decide to use a non-free unsupported operating system...
</rant>
-Tarwn [sub]01010100 01101001 01100101 01110010 01101110 01101111 01101011 00101110 01100011 01101111 01101101 [/sub]
[sup]29 3K 10 3D 3L 3J 3K 10 32 35 10 3E 39 33 35 10 3K 3F 10 38 31 3M 35 10 36 3I 35 35 10 3K 39 3D 35 10 1Q 19[/sup]
Get better results for your questions: faq333-2924
Frequently Asked ASP Questions: faq333-3048
BJCooperIT
Programmer
Back in the days of DOS I once worked for a company (who is still in business) who always bought one copy and cloned it on everyone's PC. The standing order we had was if the "authorities" come in the front door then we were to:
erase c:\*.*
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Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
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Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
algernonsidney
MIS
It's kind of nice having an employer who is pirating software. If they screw you, you have that to get back at them with. Most license violation reports come from ex-employees.
Chris
Chris
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3
- #25
KimberTech
MIS
Just let them know you aren't happy about it, and what could happen. Then document it.....make yourself a note and date it.
Write down who you talked to and what was said.
If you are ever investigated, you can always give them this link.![[lol]](/data/assets/smilies/lol.gif "[lol] [lol]")
Then they will know you were on the side of doing the right thing.
IMHO if you want to play, you have to play by the rules.
If you don't like the rules, play another game.
I don't like a lot of the licensing BS that goes on, or the inflated pricing either.
That doesn't give you the right to bend the rules when you see fit.
The problem has been that there are so many pirated copies and that in order to keep afloat the software companies need to charge quite a bit just to keep the programmers on staff...and they aren't paid enough most of the time either. Kimber
The more I learn,I realize how much more there is to know!
Write down who you talked to and what was said.
If you are ever investigated, you can always give them this link.
Then they will know you were on the side of doing the right thing.
IMHO if you want to play, you have to play by the rules.
If you don't like the rules, play another game.
I don't like a lot of the licensing BS that goes on, or the inflated pricing either.
That doesn't give you the right to bend the rules when you see fit.
The problem has been that there are so many pirated copies and that in order to keep afloat the software companies need to charge quite a bit just to keep the programmers on staff...and they aren't paid enough most of the time either. Kimber
The more I learn,I realize how much more there is to know!
monkeylizard
MIS
A little naive Kimber. Having a self made document claiming you spoke to your boss about known illeagal software is hardly a defense I would want to have to use in court. If you KNOW illeagal software is being used, what makes you think a piece of paper will protect you when you STILL didn't contact the BSA? hat's incriminating evidence to me. That PROVES that you knew something about it but still did nothing.
The truth is, the company will be responsible for any fines levied by the BSA from an investigation, but it will ALWAYS be the I.T. manager's (or a subordinate if the manager is particularly good at politics) 'fault' and the one who will likely be walking out the door with a pink slip.
Please note: I NEVER advocate someone calling the aforementioned 'fink line' for the BSA. Just trying to say that a self made document will NOT protect you from anything in a legal way. Monkeylizard
-Isaiah 35-
The truth is, the company will be responsible for any fines levied by the BSA from an investigation, but it will ALWAYS be the I.T. manager's (or a subordinate if the manager is particularly good at politics) 'fault' and the one who will likely be walking out the door with a pink slip.
Please note: I NEVER advocate someone calling the aforementioned 'fink line' for the BSA. Just trying to say that a self made document will NOT protect you from anything in a legal way. Monkeylizard
-Isaiah 35-
KimberTech
MIS
Depends where you live...but then I suppose you probably assumed I live where you do.
As for naive, no dear I am not.
In my country, any dated document...including a personal diary...is can be used as a legal recording of events.
If you can prove that you have reported this situation to a superior with no result, and that you feared for your livelyhood in reporting to an outside source, you would be protected. If you have no financial control over what gets approved, and there is nothing you can do, how can they penalize you?
The ones enforcing the laws may not be popular, but they aren't stupid either.
Ultimately, the one who makes the decisions is the one to get nailed, and if you can prove you have informed them they will be in more trouble rather than less.
Besides, if you are being investigated, who is to say it wasn't the IT Manager that reported it? Or had someone else do it for them? Kimber
The more I learn,I realize how much more there is to know!
As for naive, no dear I am not.
In my country, any dated document...including a personal diary...is can be used as a legal recording of events.
If you can prove that you have reported this situation to a superior with no result, and that you feared for your livelyhood in reporting to an outside source, you would be protected. If you have no financial control over what gets approved, and there is nothing you can do, how can they penalize you?
The ones enforcing the laws may not be popular, but they aren't stupid either.
Ultimately, the one who makes the decisions is the one to get nailed, and if you can prove you have informed them they will be in more trouble rather than less.
Besides, if you are being investigated, who is to say it wasn't the IT Manager that reported it? Or had someone else do it for them? Kimber
The more I learn,I realize how much more there is to know!
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1
- #28
mudskipper
Technical User
I must agree with Kimbertech. I found myself in a situation similar to what the original author of this thread is going through. I will not go into detail (some of it is in an earlier thread). Due to some non-disclosure agreements, I am unwilling to give all of the details. Suffice it to say that MY WORD that I had gone to my supervisor and the owner of the business was enough to keep me from trouble.
I had documented the situation, but was never required to produce the documentation for them. Based on my experience, I would agree that documentation is likely to bail you out!
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you are not necessarily held responsible for not whistleblowing if you can show that you were:
A) Trying to resolve the situation
B) Afraid that you would suffer from the effects of taking the situation up to the "next level".
So the bottom line, IM(very)HO, is that you should try to resolve the situation, document everything, and then if you are still not happy with the results, decide if your MORALS dictate further action such as turning the company in, leaving the job, or whatever....
Mudskipper
-----------------
Groucho said it best- "A four year-old child could understand this!
Quick! Run out and find me a four year-old child: I can't make heads nor tails out of this!"
I had documented the situation, but was never required to produce the documentation for them. Based on my experience, I would agree that documentation is likely to bail you out!
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you are not necessarily held responsible for not whistleblowing if you can show that you were:
A) Trying to resolve the situation
B) Afraid that you would suffer from the effects of taking the situation up to the "next level".
So the bottom line, IM(very)HO, is that you should try to resolve the situation, document everything, and then if you are still not happy with the results, decide if your MORALS dictate further action such as turning the company in, leaving the job, or whatever....
Mudskipper
-----------------
Groucho said it best- "A four year-old child could understand this!
Quick! Run out and find me a four year-old child: I can't make heads nor tails out of this!"
An extra protection to myself I use is to email the budget for the required software or licenses.
I keep the (negative) reply if I am forced to go the illegal way.
Or, I make a document whit all details and prices, where at the bottom are 2 Options for the supervisor to sign.
Approved - Not Approved
If he circles Not approved and signs, I'm covered.
The I add that to my personal notes, just in case.
By principle I used to refuse to install illegal software, it cost me 2 jobs so far, but my consience is clear. [sub]If 'something' 'somewhere' gives 'some' error, excpect random guesses or no replies at all. Please specify details.
Free Tip: The F1 Key does NOT destroy your PC! - Marc[/sub]
I keep the (negative) reply if I am forced to go the illegal way.
Or, I make a document whit all details and prices, where at the bottom are 2 Options for the supervisor to sign.
Approved - Not Approved
If he circles Not approved and signs, I'm covered.
The I add that to my personal notes, just in case.
By principle I used to refuse to install illegal software, it cost me 2 jobs so far, but my consience is clear. [sub]If 'something' 'somewhere' gives 'some' error, excpect random guesses or no replies at all. Please specify details.
Free Tip: The F1 Key does NOT destroy your PC! - Marc[/sub]
mudskipper
Technical User
In addition, I have been told that for anything very important, you can always write up your experience for the day(s), make copies of everything (in case you do this more than one time, you can cross reference), then mail the originals to yourself through the postal service. At that point, you have a sealed envelope with a postmarked date on it. Again, I am no lawyer, but supposedly, this is one way of documenting and having a (somewhat) trustworthy "date stamp" on your material should questions arise.... Mudskipper
-----------------
Groucho said it best- "A four year-old child could understand this!
Quick! Run out and find me a four year-old child: I can't make heads nor tails out of this!"
-----------------
Groucho said it best- "A four year-old child could understand this!
Quick! Run out and find me a four year-old child: I can't make heads nor tails out of this!"
- Thread starter
- #31
Just as an update to this old link, after much discussion with the bosses, they agreed to let me migrate our illegal NT, Exchange, Backup Exec, Groupshield , etc. to an all-Linux solution. I had to do it on my personal time (weekends). But it's all now up and running like a charm. I no longer have to work on illegal software.
Thank you all for the comments!
Thank you all for the comments!
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1
- #33
SemperFiDownUnda
Instructor
xutopia - you do realise that ther are other programs to include Star Office that can write out documents in WORD format right? Microsoft don't hold the document format a secret. Just like PDF....sure you can pay alot of money for Acrobat writer but you can also create PDFs with notepad if you wanted to. Honestly I seriously question where you pull some of your statements from.
Like CajunCenturion states OpenSource != Free in all respects.
What do you do about, agian like CajunCenturion points out, programs that target home users.
What happens when you have to do business from home? Do you pay for the software then? Boss asks you to finish a document at home for the next day and you have to say "I don't have a business copy of Word, you'll have to supply me with a licence to do that."
Using illegal software is like any other theft. It is about managing your superiors expectation. Be blunt, do a bit of research and show them how much they can get slugged for if they are not legal. If they threaten to fire you then you have a legal case agianst them for wrongful dismissal to. Also remember if you are in a large organisation that its probably just the peopel right above you that are doing this to save on their dept bottom line. The managers above them would probably frown upon the practise of illegal software use because it would be them that is held responcible.
Like CajunCenturion states OpenSource != Free in all respects.
What do you do about, agian like CajunCenturion points out, programs that target home users.
What happens when you have to do business from home? Do you pay for the software then? Boss asks you to finish a document at home for the next day and you have to say "I don't have a business copy of Word, you'll have to supply me with a licence to do that."
Using illegal software is like any other theft. It is about managing your superiors expectation. Be blunt, do a bit of research and show them how much they can get slugged for if they are not legal. If they threaten to fire you then you have a legal case agianst them for wrongful dismissal to. Also remember if you are in a large organisation that its probably just the peopel right above you that are doing this to save on their dept bottom line. The managers above them would probably frown upon the practise of illegal software use because it would be them that is held responcible.
CostaRica - your boss forcing you to do the upgrade work in your own time? Now that is unethical...
Glad you found a way though!
<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...![[pc]](/data/assets/smilies/pc.gif "[pc] [pc]")
[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]
Glad you found a way though!
<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...
[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]manarth: ever tried that key? ;-)
SemperFiDownUnda, I have to agree and disagree.
Star Office and others com very close to the Office format, but not if you used any of the fancy stuff in the latest MS Office suites.
You could argue, who needs it, but the problem is, most people in business mail thos files to eachother, so you are not always left with a choice.
I personally hate it when someone sends me a doc for review, created on some free Office suite, I then add or modify where needed, send it back, when they modify soemthing then, most of the layout is messed up. That is very frustrating and time consuming for the average company user.
As for business from home, if your boss asks you to work at home, he should provide you with the means, whatever they are, period.
SemperFiDownUnda, I have to agree and disagree.
Star Office and others com very close to the Office format, but not if you used any of the fancy stuff in the latest MS Office suites.
You could argue, who needs it, but the problem is, most people in business mail thos files to eachother, so you are not always left with a choice.
I personally hate it when someone sends me a doc for review, created on some free Office suite, I then add or modify where needed, send it back, when they modify soemthing then, most of the layout is messed up. That is very frustrating and time consuming for the average company user.
As for business from home, if your boss asks you to work at home, he should provide you with the means, whatever they are, period.
SemperFiDownUnda
Instructor
marcs41, I was directly addressing xutopia's statement of "Heck someone looking for a job needs to send their resume in Word format if they want it to be opened by any potential employer."
I agree if you need to exchange documents back and forth then you have to be in sink but that is a completely different story. Why? Because no matter what you use, Open Source or not, you'll have that problem if both parties are not using the same product and version if they use advanced features.
I agree if you are asked to do work at home the employer should flip the bill. But what if it is your choice to work at home? Should your employer flip the bill then? If you had free software at home and the situation above comes up what happens? Is that person then obligated to pay for a business copy of the product? What is the odds that they would do so?
Illegal software is like illegal mp3s or burnt CDs. I have friends in the entertainment industry and they constantly hassle me not to burn CDs because that effects their industry. Funny enough I have 1 burnt CD out of about 250 CDs and a habit of buying 1-2 cd a week. That CD that I have burnt is actually a burnt copy of a CD that I bought but scratched up to much. At a personal level it bad to use illegal software....companies that do it just mulitply the problem may times over.
I agree if you need to exchange documents back and forth then you have to be in sink but that is a completely different story. Why? Because no matter what you use, Open Source or not, you'll have that problem if both parties are not using the same product and version if they use advanced features.
I agree if you are asked to do work at home the employer should flip the bill. But what if it is your choice to work at home? Should your employer flip the bill then? If you had free software at home and the situation above comes up what happens? Is that person then obligated to pay for a business copy of the product? What is the odds that they would do so?
Illegal software is like illegal mp3s or burnt CDs. I have friends in the entertainment industry and they constantly hassle me not to burn CDs because that effects their industry. Funny enough I have 1 burnt CD out of about 250 CDs and a habit of buying 1-2 cd a week. That CD that I have burnt is actually a burnt copy of a CD that I bought but scratched up to much. At a personal level it bad to use illegal software....companies that do it just mulitply the problem may times over.
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- #37
Answering the original question...
I had a similar problem here at my company. This is an ethical dilema. On one hand you have your job and livelyhood at stake especially in this economy. On the other hand you have your freedom from incarseration/fine at stake. Do you take the legal road and "nark" on your company, or do you take the illegal road and continue the companies illegal activities so you can feed your family?
Personally, I typed an anonymous note and taped it to my supervisor's and his supervisor's door. All that was on the note was "I think it's in the company's best interest that you check out Not more then a week later the company did a self audit and started to license or uninstall the unlicensed software it found.
-al
I had a similar problem here at my company. This is an ethical dilema. On one hand you have your job and livelyhood at stake especially in this economy. On the other hand you have your freedom from incarseration/fine at stake. Do you take the legal road and "nark" on your company, or do you take the illegal road and continue the companies illegal activities so you can feed your family?
Personally, I typed an anonymous note and taped it to my supervisor's and his supervisor's door. All that was on the note was "I think it's in the company's best interest that you check out Not more then a week later the company did a self audit and started to license or uninstall the unlicensed software it found.
-al
Great approach Albion, I like the way you think 
Also, just to throw in my two bits on the Big Corporations [evil background music] ( ;-) ), I think they do control the success of Open Source / Free software to a point. There is a difference between producing quality software and making money off it, and manipulating and controlling the market. While many companies are acceptably cutthroat, some (*cough cough* MS *ahem*), maintain their monopoly through bully tactics and blackmail. I know everyone has their own opinon on the matter, and you're welcome to flame mine. But after seeing their business practices first-hand and taking a hard look at their '10-year plan', I feel a bit sick to my stomach when it comes to mind...
Also, just to throw in my two bits on the Big Corporations [evil background music] ( ;-) ), I think they do control the success of Open Source / Free software to a point. There is a difference between producing quality software and making money off it, and manipulating and controlling the market. While many companies are acceptably cutthroat, some (*cough cough* MS *ahem*), maintain their monopoly through bully tactics and blackmail. I know everyone has their own opinon on the matter, and you're welcome to flame mine. But after seeing their business practices first-hand and taking a hard look at their '10-year plan', I feel a bit sick to my stomach when it comes to mind...
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- #40
EdwardMartinIII
Technical User
Addressing the initial question:
I have solved this on a few occasions by recommending shareware or freeware options where feasible, pointing out the immediate cost savings.
I prefer not paying for software. Now, this is not to be read as "I prefer to steal software" (which is illegal, duh), but read as "I prefer to find software solutions that are free and that solve my problem." (which is not illegal, but slightly more of a challenge since it can be hard to see the three or four good freeware/shareware editors out there when 9 gazillion copies of Microsoft Word are all clamoring for your attention and hanging unpleasantly on your pant legs like a teeny-bopper on ecstasy).
I have submitted budgets that include licensed copies for software. As long as I don't make a big stink out of it and do 'em gradually over a period of time, I've gotten everything signed off (I prefer free software and I prefer paying for the commercial software I use -- even shareware, dammit, 'cause these people need my money even more than a huge corporation). Certain applications, of course, are freakin' expensive (such as enterprise level apps, etc.), but it is those exact ones that you have to Seriously Impress your Manager with regarding lawsuits and copyright infringement. Of course, those are harder to find broken, too...
There's almost always a "soft" solution to these things, at least from what I've found.
Cheers,
![[monkey]](/data/assets/smilies/monkey.gif "[monkey] [monkey]")
Edward
"Cut a hole in the door. Hang a flap. Criminy, why didn't I think of this earlier?!" -- inventor of the cat door
I have solved this on a few occasions by recommending shareware or freeware options where feasible, pointing out the immediate cost savings.
I prefer not paying for software. Now, this is not to be read as "I prefer to steal software" (which is illegal, duh), but read as "I prefer to find software solutions that are free and that solve my problem." (which is not illegal, but slightly more of a challenge since it can be hard to see the three or four good freeware/shareware editors out there when 9 gazillion copies of Microsoft Word are all clamoring for your attention and hanging unpleasantly on your pant legs like a teeny-bopper on ecstasy).
I have submitted budgets that include licensed copies for software. As long as I don't make a big stink out of it and do 'em gradually over a period of time, I've gotten everything signed off (I prefer free software and I prefer paying for the commercial software I use -- even shareware, dammit, 'cause these people need my money even more than a huge corporation). Certain applications, of course, are freakin' expensive (such as enterprise level apps, etc.), but it is those exact ones that you have to Seriously Impress your Manager with regarding lawsuits and copyright infringement. Of course, those are harder to find broken, too...
There's almost always a "soft" solution to these things, at least from what I've found.
Cheers,
Edward "Cut a hole in the door. Hang a flap. Criminy, why didn't I think of this earlier?!" -- inventor of the cat door
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