Company is looking at going to IP – Infratractor Team wants Cisco.... why... "cuz we want all cisco hardware in their new data center". We have Avaya now and prefer it. Why the big push for cisco? We have 10,000 extension and soon building a new site, expecting 5000 more. Can you guys give me some of the pro’s/con’s Cisco vs. Avaya.
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avaya -vs- cisco
- Thread starter MplsSpice
- Start date
Why the big push for Cisco?
![[soapbox]](/data/assets/smilies/soapbox.gif "[soapbox] [soapbox]")
This is of course my opinion, but maybe it is how aweful Avaya, in general, has been to their BP's and customers over the last couple of years.
If they are going to treat their customer so badly, they deserve to lose business because of it.
[/soapbox]
The technologies are comparable given equal budgets. Most of the time it is just "personal preference".
Cisco customer service is far and away better than Avaya's, again IMHO.
This is of course my opinion, but maybe it is how aweful Avaya, in general, has been to their BP's and customers over the last couple of years.
If they are going to treat their customer so badly, they deserve to lose business because of it.
[/soapbox]
The technologies are comparable given equal budgets. Most of the time it is just "personal preference".
Cisco customer service is far and away better than Avaya's, again IMHO.
The best answer is "Do you want your system to work? If the answer is yes then Avaya is the solution. That is not to say Cisco does not work but you will require a few Cisco engineers around for the next couple of years to work out the bugs expecially is such a large system.One of our providers has put in a cisco system for admin and Avaya for call centre, the cisco system has to be reset every couple of days to keep it going and this has been ongoing for the last 8-10 months.
It is your choice but I like sleeping at night.
It is your choice but I like sleeping at night.
I installed both and from experience I know IT guys always want Cisco because they "know the brand" (and they get nice trips and gadgets if they buy it 
)
But their argument "we want all Cisco equipment" is b*llsh*t ! Why ? Because your company doesn't care if all equipment in the racks has the same color/brand but you want a phone system with all (and more) functionalities you had in the past and not less ! Listen to your users what they want and which functionalities they are used to use.
If you need to go to a demo I advice you don't only send your IT manager but also the lady from the reception because she's using the phone system on a daily basis and the IT guy barely knows how to transfer a call.
Also consider the cost/time a training 10.000 users/admins on a different platform.
I you now already have Avaya I suppose you could re-use a lot of the equipment or at least do a phased migration.
)But their argument "we want all Cisco equipment" is b*llsh*t ! Why ? Because your company doesn't care if all equipment in the racks has the same color/brand but you want a phone system with all (and more) functionalities you had in the past and not less ! Listen to your users what they want and which functionalities they are used to use.
If you need to go to a demo I advice you don't only send your IT manager but also the lady from the reception because she's using the phone system on a daily basis and the IT guy barely knows how to transfer a call.
Also consider the cost/time a training 10.000 users/admins on a different platform.
I you now already have Avaya I suppose you could re-use a lot of the equipment or at least do a phased migration.
mojoputter
Technical User
I have been a user and administrator of both Avaya & Cisco systems. As far as the Cisco, you will get to know the tech service group very well, it's pretty sad when I would call into Cisco tech services and I would not even have to tell them who it was because they knew my voice. However, after dealing with both Avaya & Cisco's tech service groups, Cisco techs are much easier to deal with. My expirience with the Avaya tech service guys has been mixed, some very good and some with a real chip on their shoulder. My opinion is the Avaya product has the better product both admin & Call Center.
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
From all that I have read about customer surveys (The Voice Report)on both systems, the Avaya platform seems to be the most stable of all providers. I would agree with our network guys that the Cisco equipment is better than the HP stuff that Avaya uses but the software is better with Avaya.
The bottom line is “uptime”. It does not do you or your company to install something that has problems or is down as much as it’s up. While I am still not on the VoIP bandwagon for systems that are above midsized, Avaya would be my choice if I were looking to implement a VoIP system.
Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison
For the best response to a question, read thread690-1323977
The bottom line is “uptime”. It does not do you or your company to install something that has problems or is down as much as it’s up. While I am still not on the VoIP bandwagon for systems that are above midsized, Avaya would be my choice if I were looking to implement a VoIP system.
Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison
For the best response to a question, read thread690-1323977
Trust me, go with Avaya, it works, period. Mixing the two together is ALWAYS a headache. You will run into configuration issues, compatability issues, functionality issues, and continuous finger pointing when issues arise. "It's not my system, it's your system".
I know this is an older post, but thought I would give my 2 cents...
when adding a new ext in AVaya ASA...I can add one in about 20 seconds..(maybe even less when using the duplicate feature) To add to Call Manager takes about 3 times as long per extension and every change you make you have to do reset/restart to save the changes..(unless it's changed in the last year)...from an admin standpoint everything just takes longer in the call manager...
when adding a new ext in AVaya ASA...I can add one in about 20 seconds..(maybe even less when using the duplicate feature) To add to Call Manager takes about 3 times as long per extension and every change you make you have to do reset/restart to save the changes..(unless it's changed in the last year)...from an admin standpoint everything just takes longer in the call manager...
jimbojimbo
Vendor
I will start off by telling you that I work for a VAR that deals in Avaya and Nortel but not Cicso. So with that in mind...
I like to think of Cisco as multiple Definity Prologix boxes with DCS trunking between them. It doesn't matter that you call them Call Managers with Inter Node trunking. If you seriously head toward Cisco, you need to demo with at least 3 nodes to see what functionality you lose between them.
As far as call center features, nothing beats Avaya. Before committing to Cisco, ask about the adjuncts. Don't forget this is not just a PBX you are purchasing. My understanding is that the dialer is an application layed on top of the original Geotel peripheral gateways. Also the only reason Cisco shows up on the chart with IVR's at all is because they bought an IVR company. Clearly identify what it is you need today and expect to need over the next 5 years.
After a long delay, Cisco finally came out with a Linux box. Think of the adventure you get to have by going back to a 1.0 platform. I used to say Cisco was about 3 years behind Avaya but now I put them at 5 years.
Why buy Cisco when you own Avaya? I would like to see the rocket scientist that came up with the ROI model.
If data wouldn't buy anything but Cisco, why would Telecom buy anything but Avaya?
Don't be fooled by the switch and bait tactic. What I have seen is that Cisco has done a pretty good job trying to market voice as just another application on the network. Think again. You have a data network. You either have to purchase additional hardware or upgrades to add the funtionality you need for voice. Try to push and have the data folks quote the network 2 ways. One if you go with Cisco and one if you go with Avaya. If they say it's no different, you should ask who is going to be fired for spending a whole lot of extra dollars needlessly. In order to support voice you still need DS1's for trunking which means larger more expensive 'gateways'. I talked to one customer that was supposedly quoted a Call Manager for $160K. Of course that was after the $2.5 Million dollar upgrade to the data network. For the size of his existing Avaya platform he needed to spend about $500K to upgrade. He probably could have saved enough in the network upgrades to pay for it.
They data guys think they want Cisco. They have not concept of what they are really getting into with VoIP.
Don't forget training cost. Who is going to take care of it after installation. If you already have the talent for Avaya then you have a small training delta. If you go with Cisco you will need to send everyone to about 6 months of school. Of course the data guys might like the road trip.
As some of the others on the list have noted, Cisco can make it work but the pain may not be worth it.
NOTE: If you do go with another vendor, plan on purchasing an Avaya Network Messaging Platform to support connectivity during the 'migratio'. It can be integrated with all the Avaya/Octel platforms and can be connected to Cisco Unity via VPIM. I helped one customer out with this. About the same size at what you are talking about. Took 2 years to migrate.
DEMAND A ONE PRICE QUOTE FOR THE ENTIRE PROJECT. You have no idea what scope creep means yet. If you are using a Cisco partner you will put them out of business. Hopefully you can get what you want before then.
Be very specific on each feature you want. Put it in a formal RFP. All responses need to be IN WRITING. My motto is that if it isn't in writing, it never happened. There are some basic items you may take for granted that you shouldn't. Don't forget Modems, FAX machines, conference phones. This will cost you later.
What about Blue Tooth devices for your phones? Avaya supports blue tooth on the higher end 96xx series IP Phones
What about Softphones. Can you get a softphone for your pocket PC to run on your wireless network? Avaya has one.
What about VPN phones. Can you stick a phone at someones house and create a secure connection through your VPN gateway (I'm not talking about sticking a dedicated router out there). Avaya can
Do you need SIP capabilities? If you go with a SIP endpoint, what features can you use? Can your vendor support other manufacturers SIP endpoints?
These may seem trivial or far fetched for your particular installation but you need to ask the question. You may not even understand half the capabilities or intracacies of each of the vendors products. Your not just getting dial tone, your getting a communications platform.
For the size of the system, I am assuming that you have multiple sites. What failover capabilities do you have? What functionality is lost in failover? Can calls be re-directed over the PSTN during failover? What will be the result to the end user?
Ask for 5 references of comparable size. Talk to them and find out how much pain they experienced, what they missed, and what they would do differently.
This is a 'business model' decision. Make sure that no matter what way you go you solve as much of your communication requirements as possible at the greatest value. Don't let any vendors 'hype' get in the way.
I think some others on this list can take over from here. There's more to add.
James Middleton
ACSCI/ACSCD/MCSE
Xeta Technologies
jim.middleton@xeta.com
I like to think of Cisco as multiple Definity Prologix boxes with DCS trunking between them. It doesn't matter that you call them Call Managers with Inter Node trunking. If you seriously head toward Cisco, you need to demo with at least 3 nodes to see what functionality you lose between them.
As far as call center features, nothing beats Avaya. Before committing to Cisco, ask about the adjuncts. Don't forget this is not just a PBX you are purchasing. My understanding is that the dialer is an application layed on top of the original Geotel peripheral gateways. Also the only reason Cisco shows up on the chart with IVR's at all is because they bought an IVR company. Clearly identify what it is you need today and expect to need over the next 5 years.
After a long delay, Cisco finally came out with a Linux box. Think of the adventure you get to have by going back to a 1.0 platform. I used to say Cisco was about 3 years behind Avaya but now I put them at 5 years.
Why buy Cisco when you own Avaya? I would like to see the rocket scientist that came up with the ROI model.
If data wouldn't buy anything but Cisco, why would Telecom buy anything but Avaya?
Don't be fooled by the switch and bait tactic. What I have seen is that Cisco has done a pretty good job trying to market voice as just another application on the network. Think again. You have a data network. You either have to purchase additional hardware or upgrades to add the funtionality you need for voice. Try to push and have the data folks quote the network 2 ways. One if you go with Cisco and one if you go with Avaya. If they say it's no different, you should ask who is going to be fired for spending a whole lot of extra dollars needlessly. In order to support voice you still need DS1's for trunking which means larger more expensive 'gateways'. I talked to one customer that was supposedly quoted a Call Manager for $160K. Of course that was after the $2.5 Million dollar upgrade to the data network. For the size of his existing Avaya platform he needed to spend about $500K to upgrade. He probably could have saved enough in the network upgrades to pay for it.
They data guys think they want Cisco. They have not concept of what they are really getting into with VoIP.
Don't forget training cost. Who is going to take care of it after installation. If you already have the talent for Avaya then you have a small training delta. If you go with Cisco you will need to send everyone to about 6 months of school. Of course the data guys might like the road trip.
As some of the others on the list have noted, Cisco can make it work but the pain may not be worth it.
NOTE: If you do go with another vendor, plan on purchasing an Avaya Network Messaging Platform to support connectivity during the 'migratio'. It can be integrated with all the Avaya/Octel platforms and can be connected to Cisco Unity via VPIM. I helped one customer out with this. About the same size at what you are talking about. Took 2 years to migrate.
DEMAND A ONE PRICE QUOTE FOR THE ENTIRE PROJECT. You have no idea what scope creep means yet. If you are using a Cisco partner you will put them out of business. Hopefully you can get what you want before then.
Be very specific on each feature you want. Put it in a formal RFP. All responses need to be IN WRITING. My motto is that if it isn't in writing, it never happened. There are some basic items you may take for granted that you shouldn't. Don't forget Modems, FAX machines, conference phones. This will cost you later.
What about Blue Tooth devices for your phones? Avaya supports blue tooth on the higher end 96xx series IP Phones
What about Softphones. Can you get a softphone for your pocket PC to run on your wireless network? Avaya has one.
What about VPN phones. Can you stick a phone at someones house and create a secure connection through your VPN gateway (I'm not talking about sticking a dedicated router out there). Avaya can
Do you need SIP capabilities? If you go with a SIP endpoint, what features can you use? Can your vendor support other manufacturers SIP endpoints?
These may seem trivial or far fetched for your particular installation but you need to ask the question. You may not even understand half the capabilities or intracacies of each of the vendors products. Your not just getting dial tone, your getting a communications platform.
For the size of the system, I am assuming that you have multiple sites. What failover capabilities do you have? What functionality is lost in failover? Can calls be re-directed over the PSTN during failover? What will be the result to the end user?
Ask for 5 references of comparable size. Talk to them and find out how much pain they experienced, what they missed, and what they would do differently.
This is a 'business model' decision. Make sure that no matter what way you go you solve as much of your communication requirements as possible at the greatest value. Don't let any vendors 'hype' get in the way.
I think some others on this list can take over from here. There's more to add.
James Middleton
ACSCI/ACSCD/MCSE
Xeta Technologies
jim.middleton@xeta.com
All great points listed so far. But here's a different take on it. Job security! With Avaya, once it's installed and working, it will typically keep working. Not the case with Cisco. I requires constant supervision. If you have the pre-CCM 5.0, you need to patch it monthly with all the Windows updates. Don't forget the occasional CallManager engineer special path or phone firmware upgrade. Calls start dropping, you'll get really good at pulling traces to figure out what's going on.
That's just the CallManager, Unity is even worse! Hopefully you know a lot about Active Directories, Exchange, and DNS. Just be sure to set the audio correctly when using RDC with the /console command. Otherwise you will kill the audio drivers and all calls to the Unity will be answered with silence. Don't forget the Windows patching!
Our company still has 90% of the users on Avaya, yet the Cisco system takes about 90% of my time fixing and maintaining. Things will get interesting when we finally get to 100% Cisco. Rest assured if you go Cisco, you won't have to worry about loosing your job due to lack of work.
That's just the CallManager, Unity is even worse! Hopefully you know a lot about Active Directories, Exchange, and DNS. Just be sure to set the audio correctly when using RDC with the /console command. Otherwise you will kill the audio drivers and all calls to the Unity will be answered with silence. Don't forget the Windows patching!
Our company still has 90% of the users on Avaya, yet the Cisco system takes about 90% of my time fixing and maintaining. Things will get interesting when we finally get to 100% Cisco. Rest assured if you go Cisco, you won't have to worry about loosing your job due to lack of work.
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
thread690-1372364
And if Cisco buys Avaya then what?? Not a bright future in my book.
Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison
For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594
And if Cisco buys Avaya then what?? Not a bright future in my book.
Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison
For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594
I was at an MCI/Worldcom seminar a couple of years ago. I had my Avaya shirt on and I sat in the back of the room. MCI was pitching MPLS, and then turned the seminar over to Cisco. Cisco has some great networking products, but that is as far as it goes for me. They don't know voice, and how to manage it. The Cisco engineer start to pick on me in the seminar about how the Avaya platform would handle certain situations, and I answered every one of them. I challenged the Cisco rep to give me 3 references that were using Call Manager in a Call Center environment, with skills based routing, with at least 200 agents. Let me talk to them and see what their experiences are. I have talked to him many times after that, and he has yet to be able to give me any kind of references. It seemed that the audience was very interested in the differences between Avaya and Cisco. I had many people take my business card and call me afterward to ask questions. I have implemented IP in call centers before, but mostly IP trunking between centers. I have a situation right now, where we sold off a part of our company and are moving technical support to another call center. We have had many people go to do training at the new call center, running Call Manager, and they say that our PBX is head and shoulders above the Cisco platform. They could not wait to get out of there, and back to a system that actually worked. They reported many problems, and asked the telecom manager if their system could do certain things (like they had back home) and he said no to every one of them.
I am a true blue (well Red) Avaya fan. Avaya could work out a few things with the customer service, pricing structure, and how they interface with their BP's, but the bottom line is that the system works, all the time. And yes, I worry about job security every day, because stuff just doesn't break on Avaya.
gblucas
I am a true blue (well Red) Avaya fan. Avaya could work out a few things with the customer service, pricing structure, and how they interface with their BP's, but the bottom line is that the system works, all the time. And yes, I worry about job security every day, because stuff just doesn't break on Avaya.
gblucas
dmoore7648
IS-IT--Management
I wouldn't touch Cisco's solution. It depends upon, you guessed it, MS Exchange. Anything that uses a sub-par Microsoft product to by the linchpin of their flagship is definitely trouble.
I'm fighting that battle in my office now. They don't like the Avaya system mostly because they don't like the maintenance fees.
I'm fighting that battle in my office now. They don't like the Avaya system mostly because they don't like the maintenance fees.
to Apples: Services
This may help in your presentation to the company you are trying to keep Avaya (Silver Lake).
All you can do is laugh or shoot yourself.
This may help in your presentation to the company you are trying to keep Avaya (Silver Lake).
All you can do is laugh or shoot yourself.
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