Are you better off now than you were 5 years ago?

[drago762]

I hear a lot of talk on how far the IT has fallen over the past 5 years. It seems that salaries are down, jobs are down, and thousands of new graduates are being thrown into an already oversaturated field.

Five year ago, I was working for a large corporation as a web programmer/help desk support (hired with ONLY 4 months experience and was 3 months from an Associate's degree in CIS) but was laid off last year. I am now working for a small company in a similar position. While I have obtained a Bachelor's degree in that time, I am making about the same amount of money as I was 5 years ago (in the mid 30 K range), and less benefits.

Seems to me that a B.S. degree now is worth as much as an A.S. five years ago and I'm thinking that certifications are necessary in order to get ahead. Or maybe it would be better to get training in something else to go along with my generalized IT skills (jack of all trades).

What about the rest of you? I'd like to see some personal examples on how you're faring now vs. 5 years ago. Do you regret your career choice? If you had to do it all over again, what would you have done?

 

[jsteph]

As far as the Year 2000 issue...While I don't have economic data in my hands to prove it, the Y2K issue, in my opinion was a major factor in the growth of the tech industry in the late '90's. My former employer was in the middle of it, and we were hiring like crazy to fill positions for our massive y2k-fix business.

In my opinion, the budgets to do this work (needlessly or not) were horded from future budgets. My employer's business went straight down after these projects were done. These clients told us straight out that they robbed Peter to pay Paul--their 2000 and 2001 development projects' budgets were stolen for y2k, so they were put on hold. My guess is that this was a very common scenario.

As far as jobs going overseas (from the US anyway)...we also saw many clients who did have a budget for new initiatives tell us their major development efforts were going to overseas firms--Bangalore was the most common location I heard. Never mind that the total hours billed by these firms may have been triple what our bid was--which would effectively put the total cost over our bid--the cfo's looked at the per-hour price and little else. They signed T & M contracts figuring that even if it took double the hours, they'd be ahead. They didn't figure that some of these firms had no shame and would unblinkingly bill quadruple the hours of the average usa-based estimate. Yes, I'm sure many firms did save money with this--as well they should, a reality check was needed for some of the USA firms whose rates were getting past 200$ per hour.

So, Khz, while the number of jobs going overseas may have been small for the USA job market as a whole, in the tech sector it was, without a doubt, significant.

And while this trend does seem to be leveling off (due to cfo's getting wise to the 'total hours' scam, as well as natural enconomics raising the per-hour rate out of Bangalore), it was still a big factor in the post 2k bust, in my humble opinion.
--Jim

 

[kHz]

jsteph, give me proof that IT jobs are being outsourced in huge numbers. No article on the subject proves that. Did you read the links I gave?

Read this:

http://www.robertreich.org/reich/20031102.asp

There are also studies (McKinsey) that state outsourcing creates an economic benefit for the US.

The US Dept of Labor estimates only 2% of all jobs are lost to outsourcing.

Of course, if it happens to you or someone you know it is more apparent, but it isn't the whole picture.

 

[robbieguy2003]

I was very lucky, im only 19 and in the UK. When i was around 15-16 my older sister was working for an ISP and i used to go and see the staff, talk to the tech's and stuff.

I managed to get my foot in the door doing graphics and html pages at weekends and things went from there. After leaving school i went to college on a National Diploma, within a month they bumped me upto the HND. I enjoyed this and working for the ISP in my spare time and now work there full time.

I get lots of cisco, dns, unix, windows server, php, support experience and enjoy the work alot. The pay is great and i feel im learning more than some people i know working in other sectors. Although i've not been doing this 5 years i can safely say i'm in a much better position now.

I wish someone would just call me Sir, without adding 'Your making a scene'.

Rob

 

[jsteph]

kHz
I never said "Huge numbers" were outsourced, I said:

while the number of jobs going overseas may have been small for the USA job market as a whole in the tech sector it was, without a doubt, significant

By 'significant' I mean it had a noticeable impact, regardless of relative numbers.
But I can reference your own source to support that:

Meanwhile, a lot of high-tech jobs are moving offshore...More than half of all Fortune 500 companies say they're outsourcing software...Sixty-eight percent of more than 100 IT executives who responded to a survey last spring by CIO magazine said their offshore contracts will increase this year

Whatever the number, it's enough to hurt the economy. Whether it's a relatively low-paid help desk worker who loses their job or a highly paid software engineer--they're now pulling money out of the government via unemployment, not contributing to income tax revenue, probably not buying coffee at the coffee shop every morning, not buying that washing machine, building that addition, deck, etc, etc, meaning fewer coffee servers, washing-machine builders, and carpenters are working, and on and on.

However, as I suggested, I don't necessarily disagree with outsourcing. It's a global economy, and if the playing field is level, then more power to the overseas person who'll do the job for less.

I feel that at least one benefit of outsourcing is that it has purged a lot of unqualified folks from the IT world:
I'm seeing a lot fewer people in the ranks with stories like "Dude--I was at my job hangin' drywall one day and my buddy said that his dad would hire me at his software company for $50,000 per year cause I once used Front Page!"
--Jim

 

[kHz]

Your second quote of my reference was taken out of context as noted by the use of elipses.

As for significant, that would mean something that happened by more than mere chance; as in statistically ~ a correlation between unemployment and IT outsourcing. This wouldn't even be supported by the US DoL's statistic that only 2% of all jobs are lost to outsourcing, so including IT in these figures accounts for a small percentage.

Anyway, each to their own opinion and interpretation of data.

 

[langleymass]

There is the old line: "You can make numbers mean anything you want them to mean." I know people who have seen their jobs go offshore, and most techies I know have also witnessed it. People don't pay attention to these numbers. These attitudes are based on what they have seen with their own two eyes.

For an interesting solution to outsourcing, go here:

moneycentral.msn.com/content/CNBCTV/Articles/TVReports/P103849.asp?GT1=5847

 

[jsteph]

langleymass
Interesting concept, outsourcing to Arkansas. Though the name 'Rural Sourcing' sounds a bit...rural. I agree fully with the concept, but I'd say India has a far larger and higher-educated high-tech labor force from which to draw.

Rural areas is where manufacturing jobs first went, before many of took the second jump from there to China, Guatemala, etc.

Keeping USA manufacturing in the USA had the advantage, however of saving huge shipping costs, especially in the case of, say, the Marysville Ohio Honda plant. Whatever higher wages they may pay there as opposed to China or Mexico are somewhat offset by the cost of shipping the units back into the states.

Software development does not enjoy this benefit when shipping a few megs of source code over the internet, but still many companies are realizing there there is no substitute for face-to-face interaction between the develpers, users, management, etc, which I believe is a huge benefit to consider against offshoring, though not necessarily 'outsourcing'--which could mean simply a local consulting firm.
--Jim

 

[langleymass]

Well, most of the people I have met in Arkansas can speak English. This certainly beats India.

 

[Corran007]

getting back on topic...

5 years ago i was working for nasa making x working as a programmer, database deverloper, project manager ect. during that time ive been at two .coms and gotten laid off twice. im now a very stable company. my salary is now double x. im still doing programming, database development and project management but have added networking, database adminstration, report development and hardware stuff to what i do. basically i fix things and make things work. systems integration and database admin is what is spend most my time on.

im far better off than i was and wouldnt change a thing

 

[KellyK]

Five years ago I was lovin life as a junior C.S. major at Dartmouth, struggling somewhat as my initial plan was to major in psychology and become a counselor. I was swayed by my dad's comments that I would make diddly squat with a B.A. in psych and the thought of more school did not appeal to me at the time. I moved back home to the Midwest and started as a data warehouse developer, only to be made redundant after 6 months. Now I'm a Reporting Manager and am seeing a counselor myself!

Kelly

 

[kHz]

A BA in Psych would not qualify anyone to be a counselor. It would require graduate school and the becoming licensed by the state as a health care practioner.

That would be a major change of studies from the humanities to the sciences.

Hopefully you find a job you really enjoy someday.

Good Luck!

 

[drago762]

I have a BS in computers and thought about going back for a degree in psychology. There aren't too many people who are great at dealing with both computers and people.

 

[vstewart7206]

If you want to learn how to deal with people, it's simple:

Practice, practice, practice.

 

[cchubb]

I would have to say that I am in almost exactly the same place now that I was 5 years ago. I have many of the same customers, do much the same work (slight change in tools) and make within 10% of the same amount of money. So, not much has changed.

But, I have been saving my pennies, am moving to Florida into a house I bought for cash, I now have a daughter (whose college is paid for), no car debt, more friends and have learned to be more efficient with my time and I don't work as many 60-70 hour weeks. Many of my coworkers got hit by the slowdown more than I did and I feel for them. I helped as many as I could.

So, it isn't the early 90's all over again, sadly. I did get wet, but I kept my head above water.

Chris

 

[Elsebet]

In 2000 I had a very stable job at a major pharmacuetical company and while I still had to do a little mainframe support I was moving into VB/Oracle and Data Warehouse environments. I landed that job in 1998 solely as a result of the Y2K mess. I was working and attending school full-time and I always felt stretched.

I ended up leaving that job voluntarily in 2002, thinking I would take some time off for a Master's degree. I ended up spending 3 months trying to figure out what I really wanted to study in a Master's program, then 3 more months trying to find a new job after realizing I wasn't ready for more school yet (just got B.S in 2001).

I finally landed a consulting job with a $10k pay cut which lasted a year (Jul 2003- Jul 2004), then my current employer found me. I had to relocate to Cincinnati from Columbus but my salary is a tad higher than it was when I left my pharmacuetical company in 2002. Also, no more on-call or mainframe support!

So yes I would say I'm better off than I was 5 years ago, in most ways.