Are IT People trying to take your clients away form you? 12

[lvNortel]

I have been noticing this more and more. It happened to me two more times last week. I have two major clients one with a good old trusty BCM-400 and one with a MICS. Bot systems are in excellent health. One is now using all T series sets and the other is starting to migrate them to please their M series sets.

These two IT guys tried to convince the customer that these system are very old and could go at any minute and that they should both install IP and VOIP based CISCO ( yest I said the C word ).

I was moving one of them into new offices and right in front of the customer the IT guys who is about 27 I am 54 insisted that I install my connection on a patch panel instead of 66 blocks. Of course this guy never returned a single email, voice mail or text weeks ago when I was planning the project. He told me that I am using 1972 style wiring and that I must look to the future with CISCO phones.

I stood my ground because I knew that if I install the wiring on a patch panel he would swoop in one day convince the customer behind mt back to replace the system with CISCO and me and the BCM-400 would be kicked to the curb.

I reported the other IT guy to the office manager as trying to waste 40k to 50k of the companies money just to get rid of me. He hates me because I reported him for doing wiring work ( sloppy and unsafe )when he is not a licensed low voltage contractor and did not carry insurance or bonding to protect the company ( they are very big ) and require their vendors to carry insurance.

Anyway is this happening to you? I think this is only going to get worse.

By the way I got a emergency call today from a customer who has a CISCO and they got hacked and the system is placing and patching fake telemarketing calls long distance over and over and over.

GO CISCO!

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[Sympology]

Sorry but you sound like a guy that is stuck in the ways, insisting he is right and everyone else is wrong, instead of bitching about "The IT Guys" go skil your self up.I've been doing phone for "only" about 13 years and it's obvious if you stick with this attitude, you'll be lucky to keep going until retirement.
Get used to it, VoIP is here and will just grow, be it MS, Cisco, Mitel, Avaya or whoever. To put your attitude in perspective. Today I set up 64 phones in an office 600 miles away and will be doing up to 400 1000 miles away, over the next few months, meanwhile an receptionist helped move 10 around people in an office yesterday without any Telephony / IT help.

Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.

http://alvechurchlounge.org.uk

 

[Splic3d]

As far as the wiring goes, we install usually Cat5e or Cat6 in a way that it can be used either for voip or digital. That way when the customer is ready to move up to the voip world, they and we are ready for it. If you have a good relationship with the customer, they usually work with you first. But some are going to go their own way no matter what you do. I have had customers go to other systems then come back because they are not happy with what they bought, and others that are happy but still use us for cabling and other work. Its just part of the business we are in.

http://www.i3techgroup.com

Avaya/Nortel/NEC/Asterisk/Access Control/CCTV/DSX/Acti/UCx

 

[Oldtimephoneguy]

I'm an old goat in the business and can't hold a candle to almost all of you guys out there and around here. I started working in business communications in 1979. I became very good at legacy phone systems starting with 1A2's and moved up and through many of the PBX's. But now I have problems keeping up with you guys. My brain is only has 5-MEG of storage and I cannot store any more information unless I get rid of some and I can't afford to. I'm fortunate that I have a job where I'm "grand-fathered in" and I am sill productive with help from the "young Americans". For building user friendly auto attendants, I don't think I can be beat as well as designing the best communications solutions for an office/company environment. This is because I've done it so long. This is the only advantage I have over the young Americans of telephony today but it's not enough of an advantage to make me marketable. The attitude today for the most part is "put the phone in and make it work". Most of the time if the customer seeks more options/conveniences their told it isn't possible. I've also noticed that the "old-timers" do much neater and organized work, perhaps taking more pride in their work. I don't know. There are many examples I could give but it doesn't matter. Anyway, to the original poster, You'll have to get with the program if you can. Play the VOIP game and subtly push it to you clients to show them you're in the groove but suggest cost savings of keeping what they have. Try to ignore the arrogance we see from some of our younger competitors and coworkers. And good luck!

Frank. City of Cape Coral, Florida

 

[Splic3d]

Oldtimephoneguy - I'm in the same boat you are, but I have the advantage that the company I work for does a wide range of service and young guys that seem to use the experience that we offer them. I started in 1976 with 1a1 and 1a2. I keep learning as I go. When Nortel moved into the voip world, I had the IT guys to assist with the transiition. We do data networking as well as voice/phone systems, security systems and I have had to compress a lot of that data to keep shoving it in my mem storage. If your like me, I'll still be doing it until they have to pry me off the ladder.

http://www.i3techgroup.com

Avaya/Nortel/NEC/Asterisk/Access Control/CCTV/DSX/Acti/UCx

 

[Splic3d]

Ivnortel - how diverse is you business. Do you do more than 1 or 2 brands of equipment? One of the advantages that we have is that we have several systems to offer and they can be either diigital or voip.

http://www.i3techgroup.com

Avaya/Nortel/NEC/Asterisk/Access Control/CCTV/DSX/Acti/UCx

 

[biv343]

"insisted that I install my connection on a patch panel instead of 66 blocks".

Assuming these are new CAT5/CAT6 runs I really can't disagree. I don't see many new construction projects wiring dedicated voice jacks specifically for analog/TDM phones. May as well put it all on a patch panel now and be ready for whatever happens at that site in the next 10 years.

For the record, I've done this 15 years and have no issue with VOIP or TDM. Not much of a Cisco fan however.

 

[lvNortel]

just a brief comment because I'm driving. I don't know him who invented patch panels but the design is very poor. The cable sag and they get moved and the customer and up with loose connections and static. That's why I don't like patch panels

also I agree with the old timers. My work is like a Michelangelo it's perfect in every cable connection is clean and organized. Everything I see today a slop dry cables all over the place really poor work

no more pride in workmanship. When I work with a customer I expect my phone systems to stay up and running 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[lvNortel]

Sympology were I live the local phone company installed Meridian / Norstar / Nortel for decades and now they install Avaya and and the BCM series. This is what I call a Nortel Town. There are thousands of Nortel installations still in service here. They are so indestructible and are built to what I call "Bell System Standards" ( yes I go back to the Bell System days ) that I have plenty of work. I even still see the old Meridian 824 series STILL in service.

Since the local telco Century Link no longer services the older systems and customer still want them maintained and since I am pretty much the only guy in town who wants to service these systems, I see no end in sight of work for me.

I come from the old school and old Bell System thinking that the customers life line and business are the most important thing. That being said I literally feel as though the customers business is my business. I NEVER take changes with my customers business. I understand how the failure of their communications systems could mean death for their business and cost them and their employees and families to end up on the unemployment line.

I am very pleased to report that by sticking with one product line and properly installing and maintaining these systems with the correct wire and cable management I have not had a single system failure for over 7 years. Not to many installers can say that. I follow the manufacturers instructions and I have VERY pleased clients.

I am VERY conservative when it comes to the latest and greatest in telephone equipment. I have seem them come and go but Nortel now Avaya is always there. When if ever IP or VOIP, CISCO provides equal or better reliability and can maintain Bell System Standards I might consider it. Until then I am staying on the conservative and customer safe side of the telcom biz. With age comes wisdom and prudence.

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[Westi]

You see the old Nortel stuff because it is unkaputtbar but it has also its shortcomings. One of many is that networking two sites together with a MICS or 824 is next to impossible. BCM is by far not as robust as the older systems and all that stuff is out end sale for a while and even though you will be able to get it for years on the used market they have outlived their usefulness to a certain point and a new era of systems has risen from the ashes of this burnt out 80's stuff.
If you do not start to change with the times (yes it is hard for a phone guy to learn networking, been there done that) then you will be left behind and miss out on so much new stuff that can be fun. I like the Nortel phones and the stuff Nortel made was "mostly" good and well tested but Nortel has been taken to the grave even though a lot of the Nortel developers are now determined to take Avaya along with it the way it seems (latest developments in the Avaya world seem to suggest that) so you either learn new skills (as suggested) or you will start losing customers and end up with a few customers that do have no need for any new features and they will disappear soon because they too are not developing and go either bankrupt or just lose market share and grow smaller and smaller until they vanish into nothing with a single line set on a analog phone line.

Joe W.

FHandw, ACSS (SME), ACIS (SME)

http://convergednetworks.ca

Interrupt the silence only if you improve it by saying something, otherwise be quiet and everybody will be grateful.

 

[lvNortel]

Perhaps you do not understand that I am sitting on a Gold Mine of work and have been since the local telco stopped servicing the older systems. I have clients who love their Nortels and are very satisfied with what it does. Most clients I talk to use only the basics of their systems anyway. I have tried to get them interested in even something as simple as Voice Mail to Email or Twining with the BCM but they are telling me that they want a separation between their email and voice mail and that their inboxes are loaded with more than they can sort through.

All of my clients are local small and midsize businesses and they do not want to spend the money to replace something that is working just fine. For example if you have an air conditioning compressor on the roof that is 10 years old and is working properly but has an 10 year old style enclosure would you buy a new one just to make the outside look contemporary? I could go on and on, copy machines, fax machines, even a soda machine. That does not make good business sense. I am very responsible and conservative with my clients money. I know exactly what to say or do to "scare" a client into spending their money for a new phone system when they do not need one. Doing that is dishonest. I also know exactly what to say and do to assure a client that their phone system is in good health and in no need of replacement.

I currently have so much Nortel work that I have a local guy who I send my small overflow work to. Why would I walk away from this Gold Mine of a niche that I have been fortunate to have fallen into and take my chances on another product. Nortel and Avaya are well known names. I can even stil get support from them and great 3rd party support. I can buy excellent preowned professionally refurshished system and handsets. A company even makes new plastic housings, buttons and lens, RefrubSuplies.Com..

Any properly installed, programmed and customer trained system is a customers best friend and any poorly installed, programmed and non customer trained ( give them a handbook and walk out the door ) is a customers worst nightmare. How many times have I taken on a new Nortel client who hates their system and have completely reprogrammed it the proper way and trained their staff only have them as in the words of on of my clients "taken this BRICK of a system and turned into a great little system".

There is a healthy market for Nortel and for local service and support of these Legacy systems. I have no intention of walking away from my Gold Mine.

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[lvNortel]

P.S. as to the customer who had their CISCO hacked into, well as of today it is still not working because no one in town wants to touch it including their IT tech..



"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[Westi]

most here will love that Cisco story, including me.

I had 2 calls last week form people that have Cisco systems and that are unhappy with the company that services them as they do not seem to have a clue what they are doing, unfortunately neither have I on Cisco so I had to refer them to another company that I know does good work with Cisco.

I know that the old Nortel's are a gold mine I get half of my service work through moves and changes with the Nortel palette of products but you have to make sure that you do not miss the train when that will slow down and inevitably stop one day. I hope that I am retired by then which I can't afford so I think I will work for the next 49 years on my "Freedom 95" plan on phone systems or the local WalMart as a greeter.

Joe W.

FHandw, ACSS (SME), ACIS (SME)

http://convergednetworks.ca

Interrupt the silence only if you improve it by saying something, otherwise be quiet and everybody will be grateful.

 

[lvNortel]

rest my case, take a look at this, pretty frightening

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[lvNortel]

Wrong link, here is the correct one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3zUOZcewtA

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[Dexman]

While there are tons of key & PBX systems in service, major manufacturers understand that IP is here to stay. Avaya has ended production of their traditional small to mid-sized telephone systems that were designed by Bell Labs (Merlin & Partner) and now offer the IP Office as a replacement. Like Nortel, there will be lots of AT&T/Lucent/Avaya hardware on the secondary market for a long time to come.

The traditional landline/dial tone market is shrinking. Consumers are now content to either use their cell phones for all of their calling needs....or....use an IP provider. Businesses are content to combine voice & data services under one unbrella. While small companies may not have a need to go that route, the money in communications is in IP. Many CLEC/IXCs no longer actively sell to SMBs. There is little money to be made with T1 service and the cable providers & RBOCs have that market pretty much unto themselves at this point.

Today, the money is with companies that need 10M, 100M, 1G & larger "pipes".

One of the worst kept secrets is that Verizon wants out of the landline business. In the US, the company has downsized quite a bit....for example....selling off its networks in Maine, New Hampshire & Vermont to Fairpoint Communications. Verizon is also winding down the expansion of FiOS. The company will continue to serve areas where the service already exists and forge ahead with installations where the legal process has already begun. But no more expansion is planned. It is believed that Verizon wants to use a wireless delivery system for voice, Internet & cable TV services.

I "FEATURE 00"

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7n25t/

 

[lvNortel]

well that's all good and well for today's technology but five years down the road we may be talking about a completely different way of delivering everything. So it's impossible to predict the future from my experience. Right now for the next 20 years there's plenty of business available for me and anyone in the small to mid-size market.

my original post still concerns me when it comes to unprofessional and unlicensed it. technicians who don't know anything about the nature of telecom and are trying to take away that branch of business from me.

regardless of the technology used for telephone service my point is is that these are two different animals IITs and telecom voice and data and the personality of an IT technician does not lend itself to support and training of a customer using a telephone handset. They just have an arrogant and unprofessional behaviour with it deals with working with clients and a telephone handsets.. most of them are very sloppy when it comes to cable management even if they don't do the actual physical wiring.

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".

 

[phoneguy610]

I don't agree one bit, honestly we are hiring now and value it guys more than old phone guys.

ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions

ACIS

"Will work for stars

 

[Dexman]

I've met some really great IT people over the years. They are not arrogant and take pride in their work. I've also met those on the other end of the spectrum. But the same can be said for Telecom techs as well. A neat install is harder to pull off with patch panels than with Telecom hardware (66 blocks, 110 blocks, Krone & Bix). It certainly can be done....it just takes more of an effort.

I "FEATURE 00"

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7n25t/

 

[lvNortel]

Patch panels are to big and bulk and are not designed to allow for concentrated cable management as does 66 and 110. Just take a look at the amount of space it would take with a patch panel vs a 110! I can't tell you the amount of time I have spent trying to tone out a hard to reach patch panel. They are not facing the right way as to expose the cables for maintenance and troubleshooting. Patch panels were invented during a time when computer resources were VERY limited and as an easy way to disconnect one network device and replace it with another. Today patch panels just do not make sense. they take up a LOT of space and many require racks. with 66 or 110 I just walk up to most of my sites and it is all there for me. The unlicensed IT slobs are so bad at cable management and never keep any kind of system. They just want to plug it in and get back to their keyboards. They have no business touching any wiring without the proper license, insurance and bonding. I have yet to meet an IT guy who is doing cabling and has a license. I have actually stood in front of the customer and explained what will happen if he causes a fire or some sort of damage and the trouble the company can get into with the state for using unlicensed people to do their Low Voltage.

"A phone is a phone and not a computer workstation".