Answer supervision not coming thru... 1

[blinking123]

Merlin Magix 1.5;
Situation: outbound calls to toll free number; toll free carrier not sending answer supervision;
Question: Can Magix "cut through"?
Details: Placing an outbound call to a toll free number that has ivr - the toll free carrier won't send the call completed signal until a DTMF tone is outpulsed. We can't send a DTMF tone because the call doesn't appear to have been completed - is there a way to program the Magix to complete the call without waiting for the carrier to send the complete/answered signal?

The outbound calls are made over a PRI ckt. Our PRI telco says they can't do anything in CO to fix - and the carrier that owns the toll free number said "we don't send call answered or call completed signaling until we see DTMF tone so we don't have to pay for calls until live person answers".

Any ideas would be very appreciated!

 

[Westi]

the moment the call is answered, by IVR, voicemail or live person the call is officially answered, how do they get their IVR not to answer the call until they hear a touch tone?
Somebody is full of dust here, the line is answered because if it is still ringing then there are no touch tones going over the line, the long distance calls are not patched through by the line provider until the call is answered.
Try to make the call from an analog line put the phone on mute and see if anything answers, if yes then the line gets answered if not then I am really surprised.
When you dial it from the Magix do you hear the ringing? What happens after it rings if it does?

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

If you can't be good, be good at it!

 

[merlinman]

I agree with Westi, someone is full of dust here.

However, try dialing the number and dial a POUND SIGN (#) at the end.

That may or may not make it work.

But either way, that should not be a requirement, answer supervision should be automatic.

I guess my question would be just how much money are you saving with this carrier? - AND how much are they costing you when a call can't be completed?

http://home.comcast.net/~merlinman

 

[blinking123]

Thanks for the responses! Answers below:
Westi: "the moment the call is answered, by IVR, voicemail or live person the call is officially answered, how do they get their IVR not to answer the call until they hear a touch tone?
Somebody is full of dust here, the line is answered because if it is still ringing then there are no touch tones going over the line, the long distance calls are not patched through by the line provider until the call is answered."

The toll free number we're calling is 888-613-6330 for AT&T Internet Support. Outbound calls placed via our PRI are answered by the AT&T IVR - but the underlying telephone carrier (AT&T) does not send the SS7 call completed signal until it hears a DTMF tone. Since our PRI doesn't receive the "SS7 call completed/answered" signal, it will not transmit/send any DTMF tones that we're oupulsing from the Magix.

Westi: "Try to make the call from an analog line put the phone on mute and see if anything answers, if yes then the line gets answered if not then I am really surprised."

Calls placed from analog lines work fine - the call is answered by the IVR and the call completed/answered signal is received so we can navigate thru the IVR because the analog line will transmit Magix DTMF tones.

Westi: "When you dial it from the Magix do you hear the ringing? What happens after it rings if it does?"

Calls to this TF placed via the PRI or analog hear ringing, and then the IVR prompt. Only calls placed via the analog lines can navigate thru the IVR. We only have two analog lines which are used primarily as back-up should the PRI go down. Given how frequently we have to call this TF, it's a problem not being able to reach this TF via our primary service, the PRI.

We've done call traps with our local telco on the analog and PRI which is how we discovered the SS7 call completed signal isn't being received by the PRI. Local telco says they cannot make any changes to the PRI which would affect the SS7 response from the AT&T network.

So, we're wondering if the Magix can be set up to override that the PRI doesn't see the completion and cut through/transmit a DTMF tone?

Again, many thanks in advance.

 

[Westi]

I am not sure about the US but in Canada there is the CRTC that has regulations in place to solve these issues, I am pretty sure there is a similar authority in place in the US. Contact them and find out if they can help you with this issue and if you can get AT&T involved or tell them that you will file a complaint about them then they might be willing to pay the few bucks it would cost them to answer the wrong calls rather then paying their lawyers to battle with the government.

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

If you can't be good, be good at it!

 

[blinking123]

Thanks for the suggestion about the governing body. So it appears the Magix can't force the PRI to complete the call, right? or better said, if the PRI doesn't see the SS7 complete signal, there's no way to get the PRI to send Magix's DTMF tones, right?

 

[Westi]

I have never had the need to have this feature, and if it doesn't work, like Merlinman suggested, with # then I am afraid you have to find a different solution.

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

If you can't be good, be good at it!

 

[blinking123]

No - pressing the # key doesn't fix it. If there are any other thoughts floating around out there which might impact this situation, please fire away. Much obliged for the use of your big brains!

 

[SYQUEST]

I am surprised this issue has not come up before. I discovered the problem on the Legend in 2005 after I converted one from Supertrunk™ access to PRI ISDN access. Unfortunately, the "intelligence" is too good between the Legend/Magix and the CO switch when using PRI. This condition only occurs on SYSTEM phones because of the level of communication or "intelligence" (or lack thereof, <lol>) in the way the software was written for the operation of the call process.

Until the answer supervision is sent, it won't send end-to-end DTMF, AND you can't put the call "on HOLD" either! This is what I discovered when doing call testing when I needed to ring several lines at once. I could not place any of them on HOLD. One work around is to use an analogue station to place the call, since you can generate DTMF to your heart's content w/o answer supervision, but that may not be viable in all situations.

Now I just thought of another "fix" that might work if you have a spare analogue station and trunk/line port available. This would be a variation on the old standby the "loop-around". Here is what you can do. Connect the spare analogue station port to the unused trunk/line port. Then assign an access code and/or set the trunk/line up to appear on the phones that need access to call the TF number(s) that use the AT&T IVR. Hopefully that should do the trick for your situation.

Not all phone systems have this issue when using PRI ISDN service. I just had a friend try this on a Panasonic TDA with PRI service and it worked! It would be interesting for anybody that has an IP Office system to try this type of call sequence and see if it works.

What AT&T is doing with this IVR arrangement does NOT violate the FCC regulation concerning answer supervision because it is at the "system" level of the network. The reason there is no answer supervision at that point is because the call is NOT complete. In the AT&T Toll Free offering the IVR is used to pick a call destination for the customer, the same as when they are using it for multi-location routing. Once it goes to the destination and is "answered" then supervision is sent back. The calling party sends end-to-end DTMF to make a selection for the call to proceed to a destination. When it is answered that is when the billing starts.

The wonders of SS7!

....JIM....

 

[Westi]

Great info Jim

Thanks

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

If you can't be good, be good at it!

 

[blinking123]

Excellent info! Although it's a bummer that the PRI won't work, adding the analog line to each telephone is a viable and great solution.
Have a great weekend!

 

[Westi]

things like that just won't let me sleep, I found a petition from 1999 from US West (carrier) to have the SS7 sent immediately after the call setup is completed to be able to put charges on the calls as the setup is done and the initial carrier is basically already using the equipment and bla bla bla
I have not found the ruling yet but I am still looking for it because if the petition went through then the ss7 has to be sent immediately and not after sending some DTMF signals.
I might not find the rest of it but like I said before these things keep me occupied.
Have a good weekend all

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

If you can't be good, be good at it!

 

[Westi]

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/47cfr69.4.pdf

found the document pertaining to this problem but can't make any sense out of it, I guess you need a lawyer to get this translate into real english. But there are many different people out here on this forum and some are way smarter then I am so maybe they want to give it a shot.

That's it for me, this time for real,

off into the weekend

Joe W.

FHandw., ACS

If you can't be good, be good at it!