And, Commas, and what comes between them 2

[JediBMC]

As I look back to my education, I remember the rule, when referencing multiple items, to be that the referenced items, if exceeding two items, are seperated by a comma. Additionally, I remember that between the second to the last item and the "and" used for the last item, there should be a comma.

Now I see a great deal of print media where the comma is left out. Let me provide an example:

I like dogs, cats, turtles, and fish.

I like dogs, cats, turtles and fish.

Does my memory serve me well? If so, then when and why has this changed?

-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

 

[TheRambler]

As long as the topic is commas, could someone explain the use of comma before 'but'? Like in the previous post, shouldn't it be:

It's how I feel at the moment, but I hope I will always be open to other views.

Sorry columb, I don't mean to be picky, I am just trying to learn...

 

[columb]

And another question. Should I have used the capital letter after the ellipsis?

Columb Healy
Living with a seeker after the truth is infinitely preferable to living with one who thinks they've found it.

 

[Dimandja]

As long as the topic is commas, could someone explain the use of comma before 'but'?

Yup. When you join phrases by using "but, and, or, so" use the comma before the conjunction. But since English is notoriously comma poor, the comma may be optional.

 

[SkipVought]

I like the idea of promoting comma-raderie between this lowly punctuation, and conjunctions.

Skip,
[sub]
[red]Be advised:[/red]
Alcohol and Calculus do not mix!
If you drink, don't derive! [/sub]

 

[Dimandja]

Should I have used the capital letter after the ellipsis?

I wouldn't have it any other way. An ellipsis is a fullstop.

 

[CajunCenturion]

It is my understanding that the use of the comma before a conjunction is determined by the types of clauses being combined. If both clauses are independant, the you do use the comma but otherwise you would not.

In the example given, "It's how I feel at the moment, but I hope I will always be open to other views.", both clauses are independant, that is, either can stand on its own as a sentence, then the use of a comma before the conjunction is proper.

As far as I know, no, you would not capitalize the first word after the elipses, unless it's a proper noun. The elipses indicate that some words have been left out, but since you are not starting a new sentence, you should not capitalize the next word.

Good Luck
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[Dimandja]

As to its truth... It's how I feel at the moment but I hope I will always be open to other views.

The elipses indicate that some words have been left out, but since you are not starting a new sentence, you should not capitalize the next word.

Although the ellipses indicate unsaid words, they are still fullstops. And, yes, columb is starting a new sentence. The fact that the previous sentence was left hanging does not mean that it must be completed after the ellipsis.

 

[Dimandja]

I need to clarify that ellipses have multiple uses:

1. An indication of a pause in speech.
2. An indication of speech fading away.
3. To show missing/omitted words.

In (3), you should not use capitals after ellipses. This is not the situation presented by columb.

 

[CajunCenturion]

May I suggest that you review the following site on Ellipses Usage.

If you want more references, I'll be more than happy to provide them.

Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
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[TheRambler]

According to this writing tip, CC is right about commas, coordinating conjuntions and independent clauses.
When to Use a Comma before "And"

"The use of the comma would also apply when any of the seven coordinating conjunctions (and, but, or, nor, for, so, yet) join two independent clauses."

And there is also another tip about the topic of this thread.
The Serial Comma (or, Using a Comma before And in a List)

And I thought I could write.

 

[Dimandja]

May I suggest that you review the following site on Ellipses Usage.

If you want more references, I'll be more than happy to provide them.

There are many references out there, even those supporting the distinctions in the functions assumed by the ellipses. The key here, CC is that columb's ellipsis is not replacing omitted words -- his ellipsis indicate a sentence fading into silence.

The rules are not as simple and clean as we would like. Check out the following.

From:

http://www.iol.ie/~pbalfe/afo/doc_tutorials/part8.htm

1. Use an ellipsis to indicate, by three spaced dots, the omission of one or more words within a quotation:

I stepped forth boldly and told Alexis, "And if it weren't for the fact...that you were once a female jock, I would gladly go three rounds with you... I shall pass on that."


2. Use an ellipsis to indicate, by four spaced dots, the omission of one or more words at the end of a quotation:

In her reply to my challenge, Alexis said, "Not to worry...Boxing was never my thing...."

 

[CajunCenturion]

Your examples are great. I find nothing on that page to be in conflict with what I've offered in this thread. In the first example, the first ellipsis is not followed by a capitalized word, and it's moot for the second because "I" would be capitalized regardless. Also note, that by your second rule, it is not the end of a sentence because there are only three dots.

You second example also illustrates that the ellipsis is not a full stop, because you use the fourth period. It is the fourth dot that functions as a period and is the full stop, as clearly stated on your reference page in the NOTE.

I don't think it is safe to assume that columb's ellipses represent a sentence fading into silence because there is no period. No fourth dot.

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Stella740pl]

Cajun Centurion,

I also agree with Dimandja that columb's phrase with ellipsis represents fading sentence. It can also possibly be classified as #4 from Dimandja's link - "incomplete ... statements, hesitation, or a long pause":

4. In fiction, an ellipsis may be used to indicate incomplete or trailing statements, hesitation, or a long pause (but use it sparingly to be effective):

The above is an example of a dishonest quote, where Alexis' words and phrases were omitted to serve my own lecherous purposes. On the other hand...

Or the author's own final sentence can also serve as a great example:

Whew! That's it for ellipses and not a moment too soon. I might be in a lot of hot water after this one. But then again...

Therefore, the fourth dot is not needed. The sentence is incomplete not because some words were omitted from a quote, they just were not said (possibly, in hesitation?). In this case, it's not ellipsis before a full stop, ellipsis is a full stop here. And even though it is incomplete, it's not going to continue, a whole new started after it, so the capitalization is appropriate, too.

Stella

 

[Dimandja]

CC, you obviously ignored this last sentence from my examples (note the capital "B" in boxing):

In her reply to my challenge, Alexis said, "Not to worry...Boxing was never my thing...."

 

[CajunCenturion]

Just out of curiosity, why are there three dots between worry and Boxing without delimiting spaces (that's another grammatical error in that statement), yet there are four dots at the end? It's hard, at least for me, to put a lot of confidence in examples that contain errors and inconsistently apply the grammar rules.

I've presented my case, and each will judge accordingly. Everyone is entitled to believe what they will, and put their trust in whatever sources then deem reliable.

Happy writing to all.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

inconsistently apply the grammar rules.

You of course assume you have fully understood these rules?

My examples are there to foster discussion, not to win some contest. I know that everyone is free to believe what they want. I just don't see it as helpful to keep stating the obvious.

 

[columb]

[patronising rant]
Before this turns thermo nuclear, are there any 'rules' of grammar. At the end of the day, whether we slavishly follow Fowler or any other authority, the rules of grammar are really conventions. Quite often these are based on one person's opinion or based on dubious extrapolations from Latin; split infinitive anyone!
Add that to the differences between US English and UK English if we can't agree on how to spell why should we agree on punctuation.
[/patronising rant]
On the other hand we, as professionals who take pride in the quality of our written output, all benefit from the cut and thrust of lively debate. For my 2d worth I feel that three dots should be used for ellipses and the capital letter rule, er convention, should depend on whether the ellipsis replaces a full stop amoungst the words replaced.

Columb Healy
Living with a seeker after the truth is infinitely preferable to living with one who thinks they've found it.

 

[strongm]

Don't worry about the inconsistency too much, CC. The chap that wrote the article specifically says "I don't claim to be an expert ..." and that "[my advice] should be of some help, but don't rely on [it]

 

[AnotherHiggins]

Seriously, look at the guy who's linked page is being taken as gospel! Here's his bio.

Nothing against the guy, but I don't think he is a Grammar God.

For what it's worth (which is admittedly probably less valuable than docfarquar's opinion), I use a capital after ellipses only if there are four "dots," indicating that the end of a sentence has passed. The four dots should be used for a "fading sentence" as well, thus removing any ambiguity.

Next

 

[TheRambler]

The problem with all these 'rules' is their exceptions.

"The use of the comma would apply when any of the seven coordinating conjunctions (and, but, or, nor, for, so, yet) join two independent clauses."
but...
"Some writers omit the comma before a coordinating conjunction if the two independent clauses are short."
but...
"Since commas are used in pairs to enclose phrases that interrupt a clause or that are intended to function parenthetically, a writer may choose to place a comma before "and" (or any of the seven coordinating conjunctions) when the conjunction launches such a phrase."
and so on.

Every rule has an exception, including this one.