And, Commas, and what comes between them 2

[JediBMC]

As I look back to my education, I remember the rule, when referencing multiple items, to be that the referenced items, if exceeding two items, are seperated by a comma. Additionally, I remember that between the second to the last item and the "and" used for the last item, there should be a comma.

Now I see a great deal of print media where the comma is left out. Let me provide an example:

I like dogs, cats, turtles, and fish.

I like dogs, cats, turtles and fish.

Does my memory serve me well? If so, then when and why has this changed?

-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

 

[Thadeus]

You know, I've been told the same rule as you, but only since college days. All through grade school and HS I was taught the "dogs, cats, turtles and fish" method.

btw, graduated HS in 1987

~Thadeus

 

[AnotherHiggins]

Brian,

When and where were you schooled?

I graduated High School in 1990 (God, I feel old) in the US and I was always taught that the specific coma you mention is to be left out. The same rule was enforced in college. Comas separate all of the other items, but does not precede the "and" just before the last item in a list.

So according to what I learned in school, "I like dogs, cats, turtles and fish" (no comma at the end) is correct.

John

 

[CajunCenturion]

Unfortunately, anotherhiggins, it's not that cut and dry. This Grammar Reference in its first paragraph states otherwise, while acknowledging that not including the Serial Comma is acceptable, and gives a reason why that comma should not be left out.

You might also check out this page or this page.



Good Luck
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[rosieb]

The Oxford comma, according to Lynn Truss, she suggests that British useage is to omit it, while Americans include it. I was always taught to leave it out (that was a little before 1990).

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[SkipVought]

I think that some high muckity muck US educators, who have been dumbing down our public education system for decades, decided that the King's English was too complex for an up an coming class of global workforce zombies.

Skip,
[sub]
[red]Be advised:[/red]
Alcohol and Calculus do not mix!
If you drink, don't derive! [/sub]

 

[ESquared]

I prefer putting it in because otherwise the groupings seem odd, as CajunCenturion's reference pointed out.

Here's an example of what decided the issue for me. Let's say I had to choose pairs of items, and I wanted to say which ones I was considering:

I am thinking about choosing cats and dogs, butterflies and rainbows, and hearts and stars.

The sentence would become very hard to parse without the last comma.

E²

P.S. CajunCenturion, I *hate* it when my cat throws up on the front porch!!!

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A sacrifice is harder when no one knows you've made it.

 

[sha76]

I would break the rule I'm used to and put the last comma in in that example for clarity, but how about:

I am thinking about choosing rabbits, cats and dogs, moonbeams, butterflies and rainbows, and flowers, hearts and stars.

Again I use that last comma for clarity, but I'd find it very confusing with commas before each and.

"Your rock is eroding wrong." -Dogbert

 

[Stella740pl]

I was taught that in Russian, at least in the simplest case of "dogs, cats, turtles and fish", the comma before "and" shouldn't be there. Although more complex cases when this comma is needed also exist, I wouldn't elaborate much further.

I don't remember any syntax rules from middle- and high-school English.

But when I came to USA in middle 90s and took an English class, I was taught that in [American] English the comma before "and" in a series is required. But I probably should mention that the instructor was not born American also, he came to USA, even though many years ago, as young adult (probably, he got his degree in USA, I am not sure).

Well, even though I complied with the rule, I didn't like it because I think that in this particular case the comma is superfluous, when English, as far as I can see from books/newspapers/magazines, etc., lacks commas much more needed for better phrase parsing.

Recently, I've heard that even though this rule once existed in American English, now it is obsolete. I agree that there are cases when this comma is needed. But what about the simplest case?

Stella

 

[CajunCenturion]

I am thinking about choosing rabbits, cats and dogs, moonbeams, butterflies and rainbows, and flowers, hearts and stars.

Items in a series - and what are your items?
- rabbits
- cats and dogs
- moonbeams
- butterfiles and rainbows
- flowers
- hearts and stars
If that is the correct item listing, then your grammatical error is the "and" before flowers. There should be a comma after flowers, followed by the word "and" leading into the final item.
I am thinking about choosing rabbits, cats and dogs, moonbeams, butterflies and rainbows, flowers, and hearts and stars.

However, if your correct items are the following:
- rabbits
- cats and dogs
- moonbeams
- butterfiles and rainbows
- flowers, hears, and stars
Then you have a series of items within a series of items, which means the semi-colon now comes into play. You would separate the innermost series (flowers, hearts, and stars) with the comma, but outer series would separated by semi-colons.

I am thinking about choosing rabbits; cats and dogs; moonbeams; butterflies and rainbows; and flowers, hearts, and stars.

If neither of these is correct, then please identify the items in your outermost series.

Good Luck
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[JediBMC]

I graduated from a Northern California based Jesuit College Prep (High School) in 1991. I can remember this being taught all through my schooling there, the grade school years that preceded it, and the college years that followed it.

-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

 

[strongm]

Another Brit here, and I was taught to leave the comma out

 

[ChrisHunt]

Want to know about the Oxford comma? Ask Oxford! The OUP say (with my emphasis):

The 'Oxford comma' is an optional comma before the word 'and' at the end of a list.

Educated in the UK, I wouldn't normally use the Oxford comma unless it was necessary to avoid ambiguity.

This article makes interesting reading too.

-- Chris Hunt

http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk

http://www.napitalia.org.uk

http://www.leicesteryha.org.uk

 

[sha76]

Cajun - yes, you're right about the semi-colon, guess I was just trying to combine instances where I would and where I wouldn't use the Oxford comma without properly thinking it through.
Bit of a moot point now, but the sentence should have been:
I am thinking about choosing rabbits, cats and dogs; moonbeams, butterflies and rainbows; and flowers, hearts, and stars.
(Although if I was to really use a similar sentence I'd probably miss out that 'and' before flowers)


"Your rock is eroding wrong." -Dogbert

 

[PennyB]

I am thinking about choosing rabbits, cats and dogs, moonbeams, butterflies and rainbows, and flowers, hearts and stars."

I might have used &'s:

I am thinking about choosing: rabbits, cats & dogs, moonbeams, buterflies & rainbows, flowers and hearts & starts

 

[Stella740pl]

sha76

For consistency throughout the phrase, I would either put comma after 'butterflies' and 'cats' or remove it after 'hearts'.
Yes, and omit 'and' before flowers.

 

[SQLSister]

Penny, & is all right for informal writing, but it would never be used in formal writing.

The rule changed some time ago. I was taught the comma was required when I was in school (graduated 1973). Sometime in the 1980's. the rule leaving it out started to spread. To be honest, I never understood why the need for the change.

It is still acceptable to use the final comma in the US. But you will not see it very often. I still think it is clearer and generally use it.

Odd how somethings are working perfectly well and get changed grammatically and others which cause problems seem set in concrete.

Questions about posting. See faq183-874

 

[columb]

The rationale, as I see it, for not using the Oxford comma is that the comma is used as a list seperator and the 'and' performs that function between the penultimate and utltimate entries. However I wouldn't argue with those who like to use one as long as they dont argue with my not using one. As Chris Hunt points out, it's optional.

Columb Healy
Living with a seeker after the truth is infinitely preferable to living with one who thinks they've found it.

 

[ESquared]

columb, I saw your signature line and it prompted me to ask, is that statement there true?

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A sacrifice is harder when no one knows you've made it.

 

[columb]

ESquared
It's a quote from Terry Pratchett. As someone who is appauled at the way in which parts of the world are at war because God tells them to it strikes a chord with me. As to its truth... It's how I feel at the moment but I hope I will always be open to other views.

There's a very serious reply to a jokey question!

Columb Healy
Living with a seeker after the truth is infinitely preferable to living with one who thinks they've found it.