AGREE OR DISAGREE 6

[maczen]

Hey guys,

I am curious as to whether or not you agree or disagree with me on this topic. I am providing the link below. Have to read it all. Sorry for linking to another forum but everyone has linked to the Cisco Learning Network at one point or another... LoL

https://cisco.hosted.jivesoftware.com/thread/2650?tstart=0

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[burtsbees]

Bootleg copies, like there are now, Tad? What's the difference between Cisco selling the IOS and them giving away the simpler ones for training? There are other solutions...charge for the IOS, and knock off some of the exam price all in one bundle, or give away a very base IOS but charge a fee to open all the features? The base IOS can maybe get someone an associate cert, but unlocking all the other features could advance that cert. However, if the base gets a person an associate, there is a better chance that person can at least get a foot through the door and get experience. Cisco could cut deals with companies, like offer equipment and software to advance their employees. There are several solutions. In the scenarios provided here, you do make a very valid point. Nobody would hang out in these forums unless they loved Cisco and thought they were top notch.

Burt

 

[burtsbees]

Also, I think Mac deserves some stars for this post...*AHEM*...

Buioueaaeeoiurt

 

[CiscoGuy33]

Cluebird,

VERY GOOD POST !!!!!

You said - "Second, CNAP instructors didn't have to go through the same rigor to become instructors and CCSIs" As a Cisco Academy instructor I AGREE 100% several of the Cisco Networkers conventions that I went to had Cisco Academy meetings or seperate training sections - it was scary some of the instructors :-( , I was downright embarassed by how stupid some of these people were and it scared me that they were teaching CCNA classes!! However, OVERALL the program has lots of very good instructors!!

As to this question, my biggest complaint with Cisco is why does Microsoft, who is just as afraid of bootleg copies etc., why do they make it possible for students to use Microsoft OSs, developer tools and other programs. I do not know if it is limited to just the US, I really do not care if Cisco or Microsoft expand this to the WHOLE world, if they have to limit it because of copyright laws etc. so be it!!!!

I know about Microsoft because the college I work for has an Academic Alliance program with Microsoft where for about $700 per year, we can get copies of ALL the OSs and ALL the developer tools (VB, C++, Visual Studio etc.) and students taking certain classes can check these programs out for personal use/study!! If Microsoft can find a way - Cisco could find a way!!! As a staff member I was able to buy MS Office 2007 for $15 (on disk) and $80 if I wanted a lic. that allowed me to use it EVEN if I did not work at the college. Microsoft has found a way - Cisco needs to follow!!!

Microsoft has many discounts for students on the products that they DO NOT allow to be checked out - such as Office, so even on the limited software, students can still get a deal to have the software! Cisco could have the same, maybe start it with just the Cisco Academies as they have with Packet Tracer or limit it to countries that will protect the copyrights etc.

Just some thoughts !!!!


E.A. Broda
CCNA, CCDA, CCAI, Network +

 

[lerdalt]

And Microsoft is just one example. I've heard about Adobe doing something similar with their products as well. I think Burt is on to something by offering a bare bones feature set for students. Cisco could benefit huge by offering an engine similar to what they have in the exam simulations, or like what I got to see at Networkers one year for a lab prep session. Was just a portal of sorts into a machine that was probably just running dynagen.

CiscoGuy, I know exactly what you mean about some instructors that are out there. I know of one at a Network Academy near me, that well... couldn't route her way out of a paper bag.

No matter what, I do think the cost for IOS is a little excessively high priced. Ever checked out the cost for IOS for a sup720? Some of the more advanced feature sets cost more than the chassis itself. And don't get me started on smartnet costs.....

 

[maczen]

Thanks for the post Clue,
I do have an idea for one plausible solution that I mentioned on the Cisco Learning Network. Why not tie access to the necessary self-study software to the equivalent self-study CiscoPress material.

In other words, say I purchase the CCNA Security Guide. I must authenticate this on CiscoPress.com which will in turn allow me to download some EoL IOS's. (If I have a new product then I will most likely have a subscription account anyway). Only the security related IOS's. In addition to this access to the necessary software would be made available. No need to "acquire" this software. I would definitely suggest that limitations be placed on this software but Cisco could easily implement one modular intrinsic function that limits all new software titles to use on only one or two routers, servers etc. My point is that the software can always be limited and you the "new to Cisco" types never even go down the path of "acquiring" software.

These are just a couple of ideas and hastily put out. I have been working on a paper on grade inflation for the last four hours... Sorry.. Will post more on the subject later!!!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[burtsbees]

Exactly, Billy---limitations in the IOS could limit the WAN IP addresses used to 1.1.1.0/16 or something, so that they could not be used in a production box.

Burt

 

[Cluebird]

I'll stir the pot some more.

Cisco is not a training company. However, they have found a woeful shortage of qualified people coming from universities and trade schools in technical fields such as networking. Cisco contracts with CLPs to deliver training in week-long classes that cover about a college semester of material. The CLPs use highly skilled instructors (many CCIEs or just below CCIE level) to deliver training to people who are "already in the business" so to speak. That pipeline wasn't producing enough techies so Cisco started the CNAP. The strength of the CNAP curriculum is online courseware, lots of labs, lots of activities with the hope of making up for lower qualifications in the instructors. I don't state all CNAPs are mediocre. I was trained for CCNA and CCNP with the academy program by some of the best instructors in the program. But, as Gene observes, there are many instructors in CNAP who have no business teaching Cisco. The good ones make a program with a good result...CCNA certified people with experience and understanding who are ready for the workforce. The bad ones...

I concur with the idea of basic licensed images for students with additional features unlocked for more money. This is similar to what Cisco does for the ASA/PIX. I also like the idea of less expensive routers and switches for training at the entry level. To this day, most of the CCNA topics can still be taught on 2500 and 2600XM routers. I've noticed Cisco courses use newer gear with fully functional IOSes to demonstrate capabilities and new features. However, when I teach, I've always found ways to use less expensive gear to get the job done so I have gear in the classroom for each learner. For CCNA, I like 1 or 2 routers and 1 our 2 switches per student. I also like to mix platforms so students see there are differences so they understand that what they learn in class is not the "final solution" on production networks.

I don't know how much effort it'd take to modify IOS to limit features. I also don't know all the internal hoops the various groups in Cisco have to maneuver to try to implement something more effective than what is now occuring. I know packet tracer is a great tool, but CLPs are not allowed to use or distribute that product. Cisco tries to keep the CLPs and CNAPs from directly competing with each other, but I've found they do. Separate but equal doesn't seem to be working. Cisco is also very concerned with "gray market" undermining the authorized courses. It doesn't take much for someone to bootleg IOSes, packet tracer, some e-bay routers, a couple CiscoPress books and set up CCNA/CCNP/CC** courses for a fraction of what the partners charge.

Those who are comparing Microsoft with Cisco remember which sets of letters have retained their value over the years. MCSE to this date is still not as valuable as any Cisco cert. Truth hurts.

A last consideration...at what point is a stipped IOS worse than a simulator? If a training IOS only lets you set 1.1.1.0/16 why not just write a Flash animation?

It's not an easy solution when all the unintended consequences come out.

Why not just tell all Cisco learners to install DynaMIPS and forget about real routers/switches. After all, everything is going virtual...Maybe a Virtual CCNA?

 

[burtsbees]

Agreed, Tad---my point is that I believe for a larger percentage of qualified Cisco trained personnel to walk through the door of a company that is hiring, that person must be, well, qualified. In order for this to happen, experience is the best teacher, and hands-on is one of the best ways to provide this. Packet tracer and a base IOS are not that much different---the point of this post started out as training tools for VoIP and Security, though...so why not come out with a sim for PIX, ASA, and Call Manager boxes? I am not sure if Dynamips/Dynagen has emulators for firewalls, but I'm pretty sure there are none for Call Manager.
These are the things that I think Billy may be most concerned with, and me as well. One can get their foot in the door a lot of times with a CCNA/NP, and then move on toward Security and/or VoIP. But these days, a lot of companies (at least where I'm at) hire more for specialty Cisco experience, like VoIP and Security. Then again, their HR staff that come up with the adds advertise that they are looking for CCIE level and CISSPs, with a competitive salary...like 40-50K a year...lol

Burt
Burt

 

[Cluebird]

Burt,

Yep, HR advertises for a PhD, triple CCIE, 50 years experience, only 21 years old and willing to work for 35K or less. If you developed the SPF or DUAL algorithms and wrote more than 20 RFCs that would be preferred...A couple of patents for good measure...

Just as Cisco developed PacketTracer, I suspect they are also in the process of other similar type products for the new CCNA certs. However, PacketTracer didn't release until around 2004 after CNAP was around for nearly 8 years. The new CCNAs are just that. Tools and learning products haven't caught up. Therefore, "what's a girl to do"?

As a programmer, I'm sure you could devote a couple weeks (ha! ha!) to writing, debugging, and releasing something? If you did, I'm sure Cisco would appreciate the help. (So would I...just post it here first!) It can be done, but these things take time. I suggest a focused list with priorities and methods could help. After all, some of the best ideas come from the trenches...time permitting.

However, most the the seriously committed (in more ways than one) won't wait for the other tools and we'll cobble together a working lab to learn the technologies. If it was easy, anyone could do it.

My wife's new house is currently installed in my Cisco racks.

What is great about this board is the way we can collaborate and share the solutions we've found as we've tried to move forward in our studies. I direct all my learners here nowadays.

 

[maczen]

Nice posts guys!
In regard to Firewall emulation via Dynamips/Dynagen there is Pemu/Qemu. Requires the proper images though which puts us back to phase one.

Clue,
I agree with pretty much everything you have said in one form or another. I would not underestimate the caliber of M$ Certs though.. They have recently put a lot of effort into strengthening this area. In fact just about everyone is pushing for a stronger certification area. CompTIA has newer (stronger) certifications coming out... Juniper is building their certification program and they are definitely catching a lot of attention from quite a few of the industry critics.. most of this is positive.. In fact, I used the CBTNuggets training videos for CCNA and I recall the Instructor Jeremy Ciaora criticizing Juniper in the beginning and appraising them near the end of the series.. Now you find Juniper info on his

http://www.ciscoblog.com

... Also there is Linux+ and the LPIC certs, both relate when you take IPCop into account. My point is there are several vendors out there that are placed well to slow the Cisco growth potential, so to speak.

The power behind any technology related company is the ability to both sale and implement the solutions in a reasonably cost effective manner. A lack of qualified network engineers creates a higher cost for services as their demand increases. Simplified implementation solutions such as SDM etc. are not an all encompassing solution. The real solution is to provide the means for your vendor specific engineers to become knowledgeable on your platform. This is no easy task and it is further hampered by the following.

When the Cisco certification programs first came into being technology revolved around routing and switching (actually bridges).. I am not saying that things were terribly easier back in those days but there was less demand and the areas of demand were definitely much more concentrated or focused. Now fast forward to today with the advent of several Associate, Professional and Expert certifications. The novice can no longer walk in and say, "I am going to study networking". Instead you have R&S, Voice, Security, Wireless, Storage and all of this is introduced in the CCNA. The industry neophyte definitely has enough on her plate without concerning herself with locating a copy of SDM, ACS, CSA, CallManager, etc.

Technology is an ever evolving creature and as it evolves those companies who wish to be/stay on top must evolve at a quicker rate. Cisco realizes the import of the certification arena in regard to it's business. Thus the creation of the specializations, the addition of security at test centers, the Cisco Learning Network, Packet Tracer, CiscoPress, Net Academy etc. This is why I have been pushing this issue. Because I know that Cisco does care but may not actually realize that this particular deficiency exists. Now let us take this one step further.

How many (industry neophyte) CCNA's do you think have actually seen a SmartNet? Have had a reason to use the Feature Navigator? This is how I would tie this all in together. Offer an at/near cost ISR such as the 8xx series (currently 851/871 wireless) Coupon code with certain CiscoPress purchases. The 871 Wireless would support CCNA, CCNA Security as well as Wireless. This could have a very limited 5? Student User Bundle. Now the student has a SmartNet Account and tutorials are provided in the CiscoPress books. Hardware should come with IP base IOS if possible forcing the student to hunt down feature specific IOS from SmartNet account (think this is what they call it.. I may sound really stupid right now.. LoL).

Now the software. The section of the SmartNet that is opened allows access to the tools for the cert (verified by CiscoPress purchase). For example, if I made a CiscoPress qualifying Security purchase then opted in to buy the 871? ISR router then I would have access to the aforementioned material as well as pertinent Security related software. This software could be (WOULD BE) limited in such a way so that it could not be used in a production environment.

Now the CCNA student has incentive to purchase a lab, THROUGH CISCO, and can even renew/upgrade the SmartNet account annually. Time spent learning Dynamips etc. could instead be used learning IOS. Cisco would have the option to offer other slight discounts on their "lab recommended" hardware. This would decrease the demand for used equipment which is in Cisco's best interest anyway.

Yet another thought is for Cisco to get into the "Cisco Lab" market. Think about it.. Preconstructed Cisco Labs.. These would not be production equipment.. In fact, Cisco could cap speed and bandwidth on this equipment and cut corners on hardware costs in order to make this more affordable. This way, you could still have access to SmartNet and upgrade your equipment with real IOS's etc. No need for bandwidth in the lab environment other than for configuration purposes. They could offer a CCNA Basic, Voice, Wireless and Security Lab. But still offer a discounted 871 for home use but allow you to tie it into your lab (You know for the geek that buys the business ISP account for static IP's to play with NAT etc.).. OK.. getting off track!

My main point is that software such as ACS can cost around $6000+ and that just is not an option for an Associate level certification. Technology has diversified a great extent in the last decade and Cisco is doing a great job of keeping up but this is definitely an area that needs attention. I realize that Cisco is not a Trainer per se but in all actuality Cisco really is a trainer. Not by design but by necessity. Other vendors realize this and believe it or not they are like sharks in the water circling and feeding. Just look at the rapid growth, free tools offered and speed of the Juniper JUNOS as a second language program. This company is getting a lot of attention, what with the latest Black Hat convention etc... You have to realize (so does Cisco) that they are targeting the younger crowd right now. The entry level, would/will be hackers and you will definitely see more than just a Routing/Switching program from Juniper in the next few years too! As fast as they are moving I would not doubt to see some of the things discussed in this and other similar forums implemented by Juniper and other vendors. I hope this helps! and I hope the name of that thing is indeed SmartNet.. LoL

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[maczen]

I believe that Cisco would correct this deficiency (quickly) if they located it. I personally believe that the issue does not lie with Cisco's ability to do so, legalities, import/export issues, copyright laws etc. I would attribute this to what I call the "interdepartmental effect". Look at Cisco's areas of business and how they excel in those areas. Innovation in product design.. AWESOME! Programming... AWESOME! Creativity.. Awesome!!! CiscoPress... AWESOME!! Net Academy.. AWESOME! They are great at pretty much everything they do.

It's when you have to collaborate between areas or departments where discrepancies arise. Like that between software, CiscoPress and the Network Academy. Or the Cisco Learning Network and Cisco.com. Many of the video links on CLN (which is relatively new) are already broken.. That is an interdepartmental issue between them and Cisco.com. I called Cisco last week in regard to Student software. I was transferred from the switchboard to CiscoPress (books) to CiscoPress (web) to Software to the switchboard again to Pearson Vue testing. I explained what had happened when I called back and was told that I should post a request on the Cisco Learning Network. I am not angry about this but it does show a lack of interdepartmental communication. This, I believe, is the reason that these software tools are not currently available. The same reason that you can not find a link to all of the QLM's (Quick Learning Modules). These are awesome tools for learning but they are scattered all around Cisco.com. They would benefit everyone including the tens/hundreds of thousands of engineers that are employed in Cisco labs. Not to mention us students if they were made available in a collective location.

Ok. Back to the software. This is probably the first step. A communication effort between CiscoPress and the Cisco Software team is imperative. It would require a combined effort. Most of the tutorials for the various software are already in the CiscoPress books but the Software team may be unaware that there is a need for limited versions of this software to include with these books or via a Student SmartNet Account which requires yet another department. A collaborative effort is necessary. If the "Cisco Student Lab" approach is utilized then that is one more department but the cost vs reward will pay off in the long run as Cisco will vastly improve the number of exceptionally knowledgeable techs.

I will finish on that note. The ultimate goal is to build a reliable engineer base of qualified personnel. The more costly tools to do so are already in place and have been mentioned. All that is remaining is to provide the tools necessary for the discovery/exploration of the new certifications.

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[CiscoGuy33]

Billy,

First - GREAT POST, GREAT REPLIES !!!!!!!!!! You have got a lot of people thinking and as some have said - Cisco surely will get wind of this in one way or the other!!

Second - HAPPY BIRTHDAY

Third - Save your money and vacation time - You have got to go to a Cisco Networkers Convention, you would love it and the contacts you would make as well as the exposure to Cisco people and Cisco products - having gone to 5, you would be like a kid in a candy store

Keep up the good work!!!

E.A. Broda
CCNA, CCDA, CCAI, Network +

 

[Cluebird]

CiscoLive is awesome! Next year it's in San FranCisco, then Las Vegas a couple of years. Although somewhat expensive, I always budget it and write it off for my professional development. Where else do you get to talk directly with the developers of IOS, hardware platforms, new technology? The people who MAKE the products are there. There are CCIEs all over the place. (They will actually hang out with you, too!) You'll see many of the CiscoPress authors. And they feed you and give you adult beverages in the evening. Breakout sessions range from basics for newbies to advanced for the experts. Plus, you get to access all the material from the breakout sessions you couldn't attend for a full year! Customer appreciation event is always amazing as a bonus. I'll probably take the family next year for vacation to the people's republic of San Fran.

And, yes, the topic of this thread is ideal for discussing with the Cisco folks at CiscoLive if there is no resolution before next year.

 

[CiscoGuy33]

Cluebird,

I forgot they have changed the name to CiscoLive I shared a table for lunch with the head of one of the switch divisions at Cisco - he was telling us about a bunch of switch stuff that was to come out soon!!

And you are so right - CCIEs everywhere, can't swing a dead cat without hitting a CCIE I would hang out around the white boards where they will answer ANY question - I would just watch and listen!!!!

And YES, it is not cheap - I think my last was about $1,300 not counting hotel and travel, but that includes most meals for 4 days and a great customer appreciation event on the last night!! It also includes a free Cisco cert exam!!!


E.A. Broda
CCNA, CCDA, CCAI, Network +

 

[maczen]

That is awesome guys!!! I am definitely going to try to manage this one! The only possible holdup would be the possibility of being deployed during.. but will see! I was hooked before when CiscoGuy first told me about this event!!!

By the way, just bought a pair of Sun SunFire V100's! Going to run Solaris on one and OpenSolaris on the other... I want to give OpenRadius a shot! Have to play with the 'available' tools for now!!! Anyone know of an Open Source Tacacs+ solution??? Oh, and I missed on a Cisco IDS 4210!!! Thing went for $100 after shipping while I was at work!!! That hurts!!! Especially because I want two!!! LoL

Will talk to you guys later and I definitely hope to see you guys at CiscoLive!!!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[burtsbees]

Have fun with those Sun boxes. I have Solaris 10 Enterprise and Solaris 9, not to mention Veritas for Solaris 9...
One of my favorite tools on the Sun boxes is a package called Sun VTS...it's an inventory tool.

Burt

 

[maczen]

I will have to look into that.. Thanks Buirt!!! Definitely hyped!!! I have wanted to play with one of these for a while now!!!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[lerdalt]

haha..I should be acquiring a couple of those sunfire boxes myself. Haven't decided what I'm going to do with them yet.

BTW..could be fun to have a "tek-tips night" at Cisco Live, don't think this is my year to go (have to rotate at work), but still..for the future.

 

[CiscoGuy33]

Billy,

Once you get to your 1st CiscoLive, as into Cisco as you are, YOU will kill to get back Talk to your bosses - I have talked to lots of government and military people in the past at CiscoLive!!

Lerdalt,

You said - "... have a "tek-tips night" at Cisco Live," this would be a great idea, next spring we will have to bring it up again before the summer, the US version of CiscoLive is normally in June or July! I am kicking myself for not going to Orlando, which is just down the street (about 1 hour) for me!



E.A. Broda
CCNA, CCDA, CCAI, Network +

 

[burtsbees]

You guys get this email???

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Burt