AGREE OR DISAGREE 6

[maczen]

Hey guys,

I am curious as to whether or not you agree or disagree with me on this topic. I am providing the link below. Have to read it all. Sorry for linking to another forum but everyone has linked to the Cisco Learning Network at one point or another... LoL

https://cisco.hosted.jivesoftware.com/thread/2650?tstart=0

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[burtsbees]

I agree. Let me know if you get your hands on anything (like that ACS you mentioned...*AHEM*...). I have no idea as to why the ACS is not showing up on the FTP server---when I ftp internally, it's there; when I ftp externally, it's not, but everything else is...I will check into it tomorrow, and maybe put a few copies there, so that maybe ONE of them shows up! I will also get the info on Linux ACS from a book that I have by Todd Lammle.

Burt

 

[maczen]

It is there.. You have to go up one directory!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[maczen]

By the way thanks... I am running into a fair amount of opposition and I honestly do not think that I am wrong here.. LoL It just seems as if the current system will produce more "paper certs" than skilled technicians unless the proper tools are provided...

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[maczen]

Thanks again Burt! What's the weather like in St Louis right now? Nasty here?

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[lerdalt]

I agree with you too...it seems funny to recommend the courses when Cisco Press has the "self-study" series.

Going to through a question back at everyone, if you are studying for your Microsoft Certs, can you get a copy of the operating system to practice on? Thinking for stuff like AD and trusts?

When I went through my Novell Certs, I was always able to get a copy of the operating system with a limited license, but it was at least enough I could have an NDS tree up and running, login, create users, etc.

I've got a co-worker that is in kind of the same boat, or will be soon. Book learning only does so much, and I know we are going to find ourselves *ahem* /iacquiring/i software. They should be able to provide limited function or license version of the applications for practice.

 

[maczen]

That is exactly what I mean! It just seems as if Cisco contradicts itself when pushing that certification guarantees competent and capable individuals with the appropriate skills yet they do not provide the tools. This means that more and more people will be forced to become a "book cert" which will decrease the value of the certs.

And yes, Microsoft, Novell, Sun etc. Everyone has something in place for certification.

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[CiscoGuy33]

Billy,
Good post and I agree !!!!!!! I have been barking up that tree with Cisco for 10 years!!! It started with old Cisco equipment - I can not tell you the horror stories I have heard about Cisco equipment being "drilled" to keep it off Ebay when most Cisco Academies were dying for equipment.

And when we bought equipment, we did not get any discounts from Cisco, and they expected us to carry 24/7 Smartnets on all the equipment - we tried to tell them to have a Smartnet for schools and acdemies where the equipment is not in PRODUCTION and needs 24/7/365 coverage!!!!!! At times Cisco just does not get it - they do not seem to talk to the "small guys" that most Cisco Academies are - yes I am part of a HUGE community college, but the Cisco Academy is just one small part of a small college department.

Cisco tends to look at all Academies as they do their Learning Partners - most Academies are Community Colleges or high schools were cost is very low where as most Learning Partners charge $2,000 a class and have money to buy NEW equipment and Smartnets etc.

I will give Cisco credit they did have 2 deals over the past 3 years where students in the Academy could buy Cisco 831s and then 871s routers for about $200 each, but NOW the students can buy Linksys equipment (That DOES NOT have Cisco IOS on them - so no help to STUDY CISCO)!!!!!


lerdalt,

You said - "Going to throw a question back at everyone, if you are studying for your Microsoft Certs, can you get a copy of the operatin syatem to practice on? " YES THEY DO AND YES YOU CAN !!!!!! As a college I know that we have an agreement with Microsoft (about $700 per year) that allows us to let students taking certain classes check out EVERY Microsoft OS from Advanced Server to Win 98 and ALL the BETAs etc that come out, I had "Longhorn" on a test PC several years ago when it first came out.

They are very clear that these are for lab or personal use and not for any business operation, but that is exactly what it is intended for - so you can install the OS (and most developer tools) for testing!! Microsoft is smart - they know once you are hooked on it you will BUY IT for business use!!!!!

I know Microsoft has developer packs that run about $400 per year for just about EVERYTHING that Microsoft has so even a person taking all the Miscosoft exams could afford this. I know one of our MCSEs got it and it ran about $400 and he got several hundred CDs with every version of the OSs and all the developer tools etc.

Cisco should do the same - I should not have to pay $2,000 to a Cisco Learning Partner to take a class, I should be able to buy the IOSs and other software for lab use - NOT PRODUCTION!! They don't get that the more people that know how to "fix" the software the more likely that the company will pay the big bucks for the software or hardware needed!!!

Just my thoughts!

E.A. Broda
CCNA, CCDA, CCAI, Network +

 

[maczen]

I am going to continue to push this issue in the learning center site so hopefully Cisco will eventually realize that there is an issue. Thanks for the info guys! Just wanted to make sure that I was not misleading myself.

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[maczen]

I did find a link to some software.. Will post the information once I know something about it.. Thanks Guys!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[CiscoGuy33]

Billy,

Keep up the push!!!!!

I have talked with many of the higher ups at Cisco and the Cisco Academy in the past at Cisco Networkers and I know they are just "out of the loop" on some of this or just like to keep their heads under the sand I think some of the lower managers are keeping some of this from the higher ups - so keep posting - it will get noticed.

No reason that Cisco could not have a registration system for students as they do the certification and allow students to buy a disk of "tools" or have access to download what they need. I know that some will try to use it for production but they are doing this with what they are buying on Ebay or getting with IOS Hunter now!! Have a legit way for us to do it so that we can use the IOSs in our labs or the other tools for Voice, or security etc. They have got to understand that having people certified and with the hand-on ability to handle this stuff is a HUGE benni to them!!!!

Just some thoughts!

E.A. Broda
CCNA, CCDA, CCAI, Network +

 

[maczen]

Will do.. Hate that it comes off as if I am complaining but everything that I am saying seems almost obvious to me!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[burtsbees]

Stop your whining...lol
bit torrent...*AHEM*
limewire...la la la la...
You can't get busted if the routers you put the software on are not in production, and even if they are *AHEM!* Cisco won't normally go after smalltime people like me...
I'd just tell them that someone posted the source code on a bulletin board and I just modified the IOS...

Burt

 

[maczen]

Nice post gene.. Let me know what you think of my response!!! I tried to summarize!!! I should submit an article to 2600 and watch that particular thread explode with creativity!!!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[maczen]

Hey CiscoG,
If you hear about any more of those 871 for $200 type of deals then please let me know!!!

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[bobbyforhire]

Mac,

Reading over what you are saying in here and in the posts this is my 2c. It seems that Cisco has thought of this idea but then something happened....People were passing without it. I mean if the first gen would have did an uprise on this issue then maybe we could get some trial software from them...but..It's going to be teaching an old dog new tricks.

 

[bobbyforhire]

Also - I agree with burt. I mean I hate to say this butI have over 6GIG's of something's....

 

[burtsbees]

Huge Catch 22---can't get a job doing VoIP without experience, can't get experience without a job...same with security and PIX/ASAs...can't buy a house without good credit, can't get good credit without buying a house...

Burt

 

[maczen]

I hear ya Burt, Bobby!
May be the only way but the main point is that a system should be in place..

B Haines
CCNA R&S, ETA FOI

 

[Cluebird]

I'll play some devil's advocate.

Regardless what many people think about Cisco, they are a multinational company whose purpose is to make profit for shareholders. They are still the largest supplier of routing equipment in the world and they are penetrating many other markets to be the leader in voice, wireless, security, switching, and any other technology that is highly profitable. Their product implementations are proprietary while still following open standards. Let's suppose they give away their IOS to students and discount gear for training centers. What prevents bootleg copies of IOS from being distributed, placed in production, and used without any fees going to Cisco? What prevents the gear from being sold and used elsewhere? Yes, there is the threat of litigation, but the costs of litigation are huge, and it becomes untenable for Cisco. First, the "small guy" they sue won't have the resources to pay the judgements IF Cisco can win a case. Second, bad publicity for Cisco as they sue everyone who violates the licenses and enough bad publicity means another company can step in and be the "good guy". Third, dilution of brand name and value as other tech companies reverse engineer code, modify, and release competing products that undermine Cisco further. Research and development are expensive. And all countries don't follow US patent/trademark law. With the current system, just look at all the bootleg copies of IOS and unlicensed gear is already out there. Are the ethically challenged people going to suddenly become ethical? Probably not. Human nature is still human nature. The current problem will only get worse.

Yes, Cisco wants qualified people for companies to hire. Their first solution was the Cisco Learning Partners. Those partners charge high rates for the classes but they also pay high partner fees to Cisco and must meet rigid requirements to maintain partner status. Most don't get much discount for gear from Cisco so that's why most partners train with remote labs now. The Cisco Networking Academy Program was designed to get more qualified people into the technical job market because before the dot bomb, there just weren't enough Cisco geeks! That program has expanded significantly and Cisco literally gives away the store to the Academy program although the majority of schools don't realize what a great deal they have (pearls before swine?)! CLPs resisted the CNAP very aggressively because it was a threat to the bottom line AND Cisco lowered the standards. First, CNAPs don't have to maintain a certain number of CCIE, CCNP, CCNA, and Sales associates. Second, CNAP instructors didn't have to go through the same rigor to become instructors and CCSIs. (I've done both sides and I'll be the first to say the instructor exam for the CCSI was exponentionally harder than the CCAI/CCNA or CCAI/CCNP.) CLPs sell courses for $2000-3000 each for CCNA. CNAP often is available for free (high schools) or just the cost of normal community college or university tuition.

What's the fix? As CiscoG says, it's been an issue for many years. It would be nice to provide everyone unlimited access to gear, IOS, and any Cisco product for training. However, Cisco internal decisions and internal politics have not resolved this so that Cisco can protect their profits and branding while still assuring those with letters after their names meet some minimum level of qualification.

This is a great discussion. If there are good ideas (not just a bunch of gripes and complaints) this is a place for brainstorming and offering solutions. I have no doubt someone from Cisco monitors this site. I've seen Cisco adopt and implement good ideas from the field so many times, I've lost count. If you really want to, you can take this right up to John Chambers himself. His e-mail is not hard to find...and he does respond. However, don't waste his time!!!