Access Seems to be a Dead End Career 6

[Developer2U]

I have spent a number of years being a very good Access developer, but I am realizing this is doing nothing for future career aspirations for working on larger database projects (SQL Server) or other development environments like .NET, etc.

The consensus in the computer world is that people who develop in Access aren't really programmers and are playing with toys.

I have been learning C# but because I don't have 4 years experience in it, no one is willing to hire me to do .NET or SQL Server work. They feel that is the domain of "real" programmers.

I really do not want to be known as an Access developer for the rest of my days, but unfortunately that is where I'm stuck at.

Any ideas of how to get out of this Access quagmire? Has anyone else run into this similar situation? Thanks...

 

[Bstrick75]

I had the same issue. I knew Access extremely well but wanted to get into development using tools that developers had respect for. The company that I worked for had an IT department that did alot of development in VB6.0. I was able to convince my boss that we'd be better off developing applications in the same enviornment as our IT department. Also, I told him that this was better because I could prevent the users from hitting f11 to get into the backend. (there are of course ways around this but he didn't need to know that). When I came home, I would recreate some of the applications in VB.Net.

Its not the best solution in the world but it was better than doing nothing. The point to me is if you really are a fan of new technology then you can't let your company hold you back from learning it.

Bobby Strickland
Solutions Engineer
Strictly Consulting, Inc
http:

http://www.StrictlyConsulting.net

'Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work' -- Aristotle

 

[oceannative]

Something else to consider is working your Access knowledge into a reporting position. I've just finished installing WebFOCUS and several of the programmers/users from our user group I've been working with had a strong background in Access & then moved to SQL either before or during their transition to WebFOCUS. Just a thought...

 

[SundialServices]

The best way to view your career, and your value to any present or future employer, is to look at what you can do for your employer's business, not for "the computer."

To you, "the ability to program in Microsoft Access" is how you define yourself; it's "what you do." But to your employer, who happens to be paying $X-thousand a year just to you just for your time, your value is in what you know how to do for their business ... and also in the fact that, because you are there doing your job and doing it well, bad-things that otherwise could happen, aren't.

If you can't fathom why your boss is giving you the directions s/he is, and why s/he seems to you to be technically clueless, maybe the real 'problem' is your own point-of-view. The changes you're describing, well, they cost money, and they engender risks, and you can't be doing two things at once anyway, and so on. (And by the way, you can bet that your employer and your boss do understand, quite keenly in fact, the technical issues you are raising.) You are a valuable and expensive resource.

This also/i] can improve your own perspective of "what is my future," "this is a dead-end job," etc. If what you are doing for the company is valuable to them, then the job is not a dead-end. You have, indeed, acquired experience .. not only with this-or-that tool, but with problem solving itself; with managing the requirements of real application-users in your company's line-of-business. And that experience is valuable, no matter what tool you happen to be using today.

 

[Bstrick75]

<i>The best way to view your career, and your value to any present or future employer, is to look at what you can do for your employer's business, not for "the computer."</i>

All that you said is well as good but doesn't do much to help the person who is stuck using technology that is not longer respected and that will ultimately lead to the degradation of the programmer's overall skillset and net value.

Yes your right that the employer needs to look out for thier best interests and that sometimes those interest will not match the interest of the programmer. But let me ask you this. Whose interest really matter in this equation, the employer or the employee's? Any employee that puts thier employers' needs above thier own is looking for disappointment. Company's can and will let you go as soon as your no longer able to turn a profit for them quicker then a pimp will drop you for not being able to turn a trick for them.

My point is that you must always be able to look towards your future to see whats in your best interest. If those interest fit with your company's then fine; if they don't then fine. We all know that company loyalty is gone. So why are we continuing to put ourselves last to a company's needs?

My suggestion is this, do what you need to do to train yourself in new technologies, this may mean that you need to go to the local library or book store and settle down for some long study sessions. Or maybe you can take some classes. Do whatever it takes to get your skillset where you want it and your confidence where it needs to be.

Once thats done then you need to make some realistic decisions about your company's willingness to contribute to your happyness and your bottom line. Having said that, I must also say that you need to be keenly aware of your market value.

If you know that your not going to get what you want at your company and that you can do better elsewhere, then go elsewhere. If you know that you're not going to make a sincere effort to do what it takes to get what you want, weather that need is monetary or simply just a change in job description, then you need to lower your standards and be happy. If you are willing to go through those temporary pains to get what you want the do it.

The point I'm making is that you work for companies, they don't own you. If you continue to think in terms of "what hoops can I jump through to make my boss happy and maybe get something in return", then you'll always have a "Breadcrumb" mentality. Adjust your thinking and concentrate on increasing your marketablity and you'll have a skillset that you can utilize weather or not your company wants to stick with the old technology.



Bobby Strickland
Solutions Engineer
Strictly Consulting, Inc
http:

http://www.StrictlyConsulting.net

'Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work' -- Aristotle

 

[KornGeek]

Whose interest really matter in this equation, the employer or the employee's?

I disagree with you on this point. The employer is paying you to do a job, so their needs for how the job is done come before your needs for building your skillset.

However, I agree with the rest of your post. If you want to build your skillset, do so in your personal time, and make the transition to a company that is better aligned with your long term goals.

I spent a long time wallowing at a company and not building my skill set. I stayed because I had job security. However, once I left, I was able to quickly find work that builds my skillset and pays even better. Don't let your fear of the unknown hold you back.

 

[h0h0h0]

i'm going to star bstrick - Ultimatley if the work you're doing is not satisfying then you should spend some time learning a new technology to satisfy yourself. You can work at your current job in the mean time and understand that hey, just cause they don't move in a new direction, doesn't mean you can't. There are two things to do. Guerilla ways of using new technology at the current company or find a plce where you can use your skill set.

I am a certified java programmer. I work in a shop with no java and no plans to move in the future. The need simply isn't there. I know that we won't be moving to java in the mid-term so therefore I must find a position that will allow me to do what i love, java. There is also no need for leadership aside from what's there (it's a very ticket oriented place) - now I fully understand that there are things I can do to make myself more of a leader here but do I want to do that in the current environment? Nah. So again any new position i look for should afford me an opportunity to perform this type of work as well.

So while I have no chance at doing any leadership or java stuff at my current job, that means I MUST learn a new technology off-time and I MUST find a new position.

To second a point, I also became Crystal Certified because that's what the company was doing at the time. Now we've moved to Business oBjects and there is a team in place for that. So i have a certification for something i really don't enjoy. I learned that it's disappointing if I don't do what I enjoy while the opportunity to do it is there. I did something for the sake of the company but if things change (And they do) then what good is it. Getting the certification didn't allow me any of the benefits because the needs shifted.

So you may want to do SQL at a company but they move to Oracle in a couple months. You achieved your goal of working in a company that used SQL but now you're in a boat where your skills aren't needed.


So yeah the current company Needs your skill. That's a benefit in and of itself. Screw what others think. But if you're interested in learning more then the current job might not be the place to do it.

And here's my opinion on poo-pooing access. Access and Excel are what most companies RUN on down in the trenches. Daily operations become so ingraned. It's a great tool when it's used right and there's a TON of opportunity out there for access to sql upgrades if you want it (just maybe not at your current job). Anyone who poo-poos it is definatley not someone who always has the company interests in their mind. Because the company should be focused on core compentency.

BTW - I'm an old Access convert and I love the java world. Took a bit of time and a ton of mistakes to get to a comfortable place but it was well worth it.

HTH.

 

[Bstrick75]

I think that we all can agree that the key is to be a self-starter. I think that this is more important in IT then any other field. Alot of this is becuase our industry evolves so often and alot of this is because our industry is so expansive. For me, I always amazed at how expansive IT really is. The more I think I know, the more I discover that I'm just scratching the surface. This would be something that would frustrate people who have no place in our choosen industry but should excite those people who were meant for it.

Our industry is unlike any other that I personally know of. Unlike other professions, even someone who is considered an expert could find himself obsolete if he sat and rested on his laurals for more than a year. We have to be in a constant state of learning just to keep up. This is why I've always contented that people who are self-taught are always the best programmers. They made the mental commitment to take the road less traveled to get to where they want to be in life. This often a harder route becuase you have noone to compare yourself two (because of its solitude) so you don't how well you are progressing because there are no tests or other people to use as a marker for your progress. And yet they keep on keeping on.

I simply feel that this winning attitude should'nt stop with your education. Learn to take the road less travelled in your personal and professional life as well. Ultimately, you should always strive to set and achieve new goals. Let these goals define who you are. Most importantly, don't let your company dictate what those goals are or if they are within your reach.

Let's think about this, you come to your boss and say, "hey, I think that we should began to phase out our old Access databases in favor of creating more robust databases within SQL Server.". You boss replies, "Yeah thats nice but I don't really care if this is a better solution in the long run. I don't plan on being manager for this department more than a year or year and we may not see the benifit of this transistion within that time period or I may not be recognized for improving the company's data management processes because, though it may make us more efficient, it doesn't wow my boss and, therefore its not important to me."
You could sit be upset about how stupid the whole thing is and how the upper management doesn't care about making things better. The better thing to do is understand that the job isn't designed to care about you any more then an application you built to monitor time sheets would care about the person clocking in. Yeah, I know that some people are recognized and respected within companies and thier opinion counts. Thats not you or me. And even if it was, don't fool yourself into thinking it genuine. You're only as good as your last trick.

The better thing to do is think of yourself as your own company and consider your capabilities to be your flagship product. Just like your present company didn't feel bad about telling you, "sorry, but your needs don't fit with our current goals" or "what you want doesn't add value to our company" (which is well within your rights); you need to be ready to say "sorry but I've tried to work with you on this, but your policies are not adding value to my company and do not fit my current goals. (which is well within your right).

Bottom line is that you have to be your own avocate and also understand that the days of company loyalty are gone (if they ever existed); its about you. That means that you are the only one who can decide where you go, how far and how happy you are getting there.

If you want your company to do that for you then you might as well put on straw hat and start picking cotton with the hopes that you don't get sold down river one of these days.

Just to make sure we're clear. I think you should always give 110%... and thats when you can't give 120%. But you give your best because its in your best interests, not the company that you work for. And when you work no longer fits your interests LEAVE!

I could go on for days but I think you all understand what I mean.


Bobby Strickland
Solutions Engineer
Strictly Consulting, Inc
http:

http://www.StrictlyConsulting.net

'Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work' -- Aristotle

 

[h0h0h0]

have a job before you leave of course.
of course.
good post b

 

[SundialServices]

BStrick, bear with me a second...

Let us suppose that you are "the boss," having been promoted to that position (let us say) on your genuine merits. (In other words, you are by no means "clueless.")

Your company runs on Microsoft Access. You can look at your budget figures and see that you have paid your cadre of programmers, over the last three years, nearly half a million dollars for this software. It may be klunky in some ways but it works, and it runs the business.

Now, one of your programmer comes in to your office, announces his love for Java, and says that you should convert everything to SQL Server. What would go through your mind? What would you tell this person, and would that person (a) understand, or (b) care?

You have a lot to worry about, too, because for the last two rather-lean years you have been able to work out the compromise, unbeknownst to this employee, that you will continue to be allowed to keep your staff of three as long as there is no attrition. But if anyone goes, you can't replace him or her. You can't say that, but it is another line on your face.

What that person's really saying is... "See ya!"

Consider this: My first job was at a University, working in their computer-center. The machine de jour there was an HP-3000 minicomputer with a whopping 1 megabyte of memory. It ran the school. Today, almost everything has changed about the technology, but the business requirement has not changed at all: the computer center still runs the school. Purchasing, parking tickets, meal cards, the library, academic computer resources, grades, test-grading, and a zillion other things. That business-unit does all the things it did "back then" and many more. (And some twenty-year-old systems are still in use.)

And that, my good friend, is what the programmers who work there (some of whom still work there!) are "worth." That is why they are "valued." Not because of what they technically know, but because of what the business-unit does and because they enable that BU to meet its daily mission.

There's one more corny old word I'd suggest to you, and that is loyalty. Don't be in-it "just for you." Don't fall into the trap of thinking either that computers are "just thrown out," nor (especially) that people are "just thrown out" with them! It's just not true.

 

[h0h0h0]

it's pretty much true man - when the money runs out the over head has to go.

 

[Bstrick75]

SundialServices

I think that there is a fundamental difference between your point of view and mine. I don't know how much experience you gained from working somewhere that used a computer that was 20 years old. You say that you, as a employee offered alot of value to the company by being able to maintain this outdated system. Let me ask you this, what value did they add to you? You learned how to operate, maintain and possibly program for a system that no other company will have a need for. I can't see how you could've made good money working at a company that can't even offord an system upgrade after 20years. It seems like a waste of your time to me. What programming language did you use? Punch cards?

I have a computer consulting/Micro-ISV company. I can't imagine what I'd think if you applied for a job with me and all you had on your resume was an IT position that was relavant 20 years ago. Do you think that the college was looking out for your best interest when they decided to stick with that system? I don't even think that they was looking for the interest of the students at the school. My God, I hope this college did'nt teach any tech courses!

You mentioned loyalty as something of importance. I 100% agree. But my loyalty lies with my family, and my friends. People who care about me and my well being. Company's don't care about your well being, they're not supposed to. My company, Strictly Consulting, Inc. don't give a d#mn about me. The boss works me to death and puts me on assignments that I sometimes don't know if I can do. And don't let me talk about the pay. If I wasn't the owner, I'd quit.

But maybe you don't have kids or a wife, and maybe money isn't a big concern for you. If thats the case then your probably motivated but factors that I don't understand. My message is geared toward people who want to make the most out of thier lives and careers.

And by the way, successful companies do throw out computes when they are out of date. I bet that your college was spending more money to keep that old system limping along. And when it finally breaks then those programmers will be lost. Unless they are taking my advice and learning how to use a programming language that came out this decade then thier going to be lost when the college finally updates the system. Its going to be like the cavemen when they first discovered fire.

I think that you believe I'm saying you should just be in it for yourself. I am, but to me this means that you should do your best to master the workplace environment and also learn and apply all you can to be the best you can be. If you do this, one of the bi-products of this will be that you'll be the big-man-on-campus. The company will love you and may go out they're way to keep you. But once you get to this point, you need to consider if that company is still the best place for you to be. If it is then stay, if not then go.

Its as simple as that.

Bobby Strickland
Solutions Engineer
Strictly Consulting, Inc
http:

http://www.StrictlyConsulting.net

'Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work' -- Aristotle

 

[SundialServices]

(Smile...) Twenty years ago, that technology wasn't twenty years old. Today, the hardware platform is obviously entirely different, but the business role of the computer center at that school is exactly the same.

So... work for the department, and adapt to the technology.

Lots of programmers "work for the technology." If they are not working with the latest-and-greatest thing (whatever that may be today), they jump-ship at the drop of a hat -- leaving you in the lurch. They're on a Faustian quest, tilting at windmills, but they don't know it yet. By and large, programmers are (as a lot) terribly insecure. Even the ones that have no reason to be.

And yes... go home at night. Forget about work until the next day. It's a gorgeous day outside; your spouse is waiting, your family ... the work will be there tomorrow.

 

[Bstrick75]

I think that we can agree that everyone is different and has different needs. For me, I couldn't work for a company that has outdated software. Old software maybe, but 20 years old is too old for me. With that said, I can understand why someone may choose to stay with a company like that. After a while, I suppose that you would be considered as a specialist within that technology.

My point originally was that if you are concerned that you're not getting what you want out of a company then its up to you to make things work out.

Bobby Strickland
Solutions Engineer
Strictly Consulting, Inc
http:

http://www.StrictlyConsulting.net

'Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work' -- Aristotle