Access Seems to be a Dead End Career 6

[Developer2U]

I have spent a number of years being a very good Access developer, but I am realizing this is doing nothing for future career aspirations for working on larger database projects (SQL Server) or other development environments like .NET, etc.

The consensus in the computer world is that people who develop in Access aren't really programmers and are playing with toys.

I have been learning C# but because I don't have 4 years experience in it, no one is willing to hire me to do .NET or SQL Server work. They feel that is the domain of "real" programmers.

I really do not want to be known as an Access developer for the rest of my days, but unfortunately that is where I'm stuck at.

Any ideas of how to get out of this Access quagmire? Has anyone else run into this similar situation? Thanks...

 

[fredericofonseca]

Start practicing T-SQL.
Then convert all your applications to SQL Server with VB (6 or .net) or c# as front end.

Try and get a job on a company that is willing to give you work on SQL Server, and on one of the newest languages trends. Be willing to take a junior position and a pay cut.


Note that many companies are interested on programming experience and on approach to problems, not on specific language skills, even though most jobs are advertised as requiring x years in Y and Z.




Regards

Frederico Fonseca
SysSoft Integrated Ltd

http://www.syssoft-int.com

 

[jrbarnett]

Hi developer2u,

I'm in a similar situation and have been trying to upsize critical Access based systems to SQL server (but still using Access as a frontend application where appropriate).
I've worked on getting general windows system support/administration knowledge as well as SQL server.

I'd say try and go for jobs that involve Access only as part of an overall picture, for example that use it as frontend to SQL Server (or other client/server RDBMS) apps, or involve a number of relational database applications and related tools (eg Business objects) or major systems that run on top of them where Access is only part of the job.

Access is very good at producing easy database applications and for prototyping systems in a quick way, certainly far quicker than writing the database access code in VB. Its a testament to its stability for small applications with not many concurrent users that many applications designed as such don't end up being upsized from this to a proper client/server database, whether Access is the frontend or not.

John

 

[Developer2U]

Thanks for the response. The thought of taking a pay cut doesn't appeal to me. I've worked hard to get where I am at and going back to being a junior programmer seems like starting from ground zero again.

There has to be a better way.

Well I brought up this idea to the manager at work, to upsize the current applications to something like MSDE and have a .net front end.

She acted as if I was doing this for selfish reasons and asked all kinds of questions as to why I want to do such a thing. I mentioned that Access databases are prone to getting corrupted when you get a certain number of users and certain amt of data. Her answer was to dump data into another database on a weekly basis.

Heck it's been hard enough to convince these people that databases are better than spreadsheets lol. Yet I still see them typing information into several different spreadsheets, when a database would do the trick. When it comes time to do a report, all hell breaks loose. I could automate a lot of that stuff but then someone talks about office politics. I'm still amazed at how they haven't broken their love affair with spreadsheets and tables in word documents. They don't seem to get it that this is very inefficient.

Ok, sorry, I have digressed.

Does anyone have any arguments I can make to justify why I would want to go .NET and/or SQL Server? I need to come up with some justifications for this, because I guess she feels that Access is the be all end all of development environments.

One of the applications I am slated to create is a time tracking app that will span about 80 users. Although there won't be 80 simultaneous users. Another application I am slated to work on involves a project management application that would track a project from beginning to end through the software development cycle. I thought this would be a good candidate for .net/msde.

Is .NET only necessary for enterprise architectures or is it ok for departmental or work group type applications?

I think if I can build a cogent argument I might be able to get somewhere. If they don't authorize it, I am still going to upsize these applications on my own time.

Another idea I have thought about is building some sample applications on a web hosting site that supports .net/sql server. Do you think this would impress any prospective employers? I'm trying to show some motivation and initiative here, just I'm not sure if the company I am at really appreciates it.

 

[Ed2020]

Developer2U,

I'm sorry to hear about the quandary you've found yourself in. The company I work for has a very similar attitude to Access to the one you describe. It's a shame as Access is a very capable tool if used correctly in the right scenario. It certainly has more potential than a lot of professional programmers give it credit for.

Without wanting to state the obvious the answer is to learn something else. If you can't gain the work experience in your current role then qualifications would be a good way to go. Whilst I don't believe that certificates are the be all and end all (some of the best programmers I know are unqualified, and some of the least talented are ones with the right pieces of paper but no real-world experience) a couple of Microsoft exams are certainly not going to do any harm.

The .Net languages seem like they're going to be the next big thing, but there doesn't appear to be a huge demand for them at the moment.

For what it's worth my current list of areas to become proficient in is:

1. VB.Net (there seems to be more demand for this than C#).
2. SQL Server.
3. C# and/or C++ .Net
4. Oracle (although this is a long way off for me).

VB6 would be a good place to start for an experienced Access developer - you'll have a relatively quick learning experience owing to its similarities with Access VBA and it's still very marketable.

Please keep pushing the merits of Access though. It still has its place, and I don't believe there are many alternatives in terms of ease of use and flexibility in what can be delivered.

Best of luck.

Ed Metcalfe.


Please do not feed the trolls.....

 

[Developer2U]

I already know VB6...been there and done that. As far as SQL Server is concerned, I know how to do the intermediate level stuff, creating stored procedures, etc.

I don't see the use in learning anymore about VB6. It is no longer used for new development. It's more for maintaining legacy systems.

As far as .NET not being in demand, I would really disagree with that. I see a lot of .NET jobs on the job boards. In general, I see more C# jobs than VB.NET.

The problem, as I stated before, is that no one is going to hire a .NET programmer unless they have 3 years experience.

I have created my own sample database applications with C# using class modules, stored procedures, etc. It's just I don't get to use them.

So that leaves me stuck in the Access world.

I am 40 years old and realize at this point a lot of companies don't want to hire anyone over 40 unless they are a senior level developer.

I am beginning to realize I made a COLOSSAL error in sticking with Access development all these years.

 

[Ed2020]

Devloper2U,

Perhaps things are different in your part of the world. VB6 is definitely not just used to maintain legacy systems in the company I work in, and the jobs I look at on the internet suggest this is also the case in other companies around my area.

If anyone out there can come up with a solution that enables somebody to move jobs, to an area in which one has less commercial experience, without taking a pay cut I'll very much look forward to reading it.

Ed Metcalfe.

Please do not feed the trolls.....

 

[jrbarnett]

Just a quick thought, have you ever thought about becoming a SQL Server DBA if your SQL skills are good?
Perhaps then you could use this as a stepping stone to writing applications that use your SQL skills full time and your C# skills would not be wasted?

John

 

[Developer2U]

All these are good suggestions, but again in order to be a DBA they want you to have a minimum of 5 years experience as a DBA.

What I am in the process of doing is creating a web site using discountasp.net. Everything will be done in C#/ASP.NET/SQL Server. I am going to create a sample e-commerce site as well as some database front end examples. I will create stored procedures, etc. I will create also provide other .Net examples, etc.

I am also going to pass some certifications.

None of these things may impress all hiring managers, but they may impress some.

 

[mmorancbt]

If you've read any of my prior post, articles, blogs, etc. - this advice may be repetitive.

Small companies do not really care about x years or even x certs. I work for a company right now that had an Access DB. In the past year I've converted it to a SQL Back-end, access front-end, with several websites that feed and report on the data.

They've moved from the Access DB to a robust environment using VB.NET, web services, asp.net, and other technologies. The business owners do not care about the technology, just the functionality and business automation.

I am certain you could find similar situations in your area. I define a small-business sweet-spot as having up to 200 employees.

Get your experience with multiple tools there and then you can easily parlay that into a larger company - if you want to. However, I would NEVER leave the small-business market. I get to work with bright, motivated, results & performance-oriented business owners and management.

Instead of being lost in a company of x thousand people, I get to know these men and women personally, get involved in business direction meetings, and have even brought them business - resulting in commission-type pay - separate of my consulting work.

It is not that you cannot make connections like that in a larger company but it is far less prevelant.

Good luck.

Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at:

http://www.cbtoolkit.com

Career Blog:

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Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)

 

[Sheco]

"When it comes time to do a report, all hell breaks loose."

Reporting Services is an extension of SQL Server. It was a free add-on to SQLServer 2000 and comes together with the new SQLServer 2005.

Perhaps you can weasel your way into SQL Server via Reporting Services?

 

[MDXer]

The thought of taking a pay cut doesn't appeal to me. I've worked hard to get where I am at and going back to being a junior programmer seems like starting from ground zero again.

Unfortunately by moving to an area you do not have a proven proffesional record you are in some ways going to be a junior. You say you have worked very hard to get where you are but are seeing that the future in your current technology doesn't hold a lot of potential. You need to find a compromise in what you are willing to sacrafice to move into something you really want to do.

Unfortunately I am currently dealing with a similiar situation only with me being the one doing the hiring. I have candidates who have mad DBA or OLTP skills unwilling trying to get into OLAP and DW with the belief that their skill set and years experience demand high salaries when the reality is after talking to them they understand very little about OLAP or DW.

If you identify where you want to go then you next need to identify what you need to do to get there. If this requires taking a couple steps down in title and pay then you should be willing to do it to reach your goals. With the number of IT people out of work or looking to move to a new job people need to realise that sometimes you have to give up a bit to get what you want.

Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck

 

[Developer2U]

Yes, it is true that nowadays no one really cares if you have been an Access programmer. It's good for making an interviewer chuckle however.

If I had to do it all over again, I would not have set myself back by getting too deep into the Access world. That was a major career mistake. The scary thing is that I am being paid more than probably half the .net developers out there. I don't think the company I work for even understands that developing Access applications is as easy as it gets in the programming world.

I went online to look up jobs on ComputerJobs.com in the entry level area. Most of these jobs required 3-5 years experience in like 7 different technologies.

If that is considered entry level, no one is going to get in.

I have started a study regimen of 2-3 hours of study a night in order to learn some new technologies. It's not good for the social life, but it's a sacrifice I have to make at this point.

Until someone gives me the experience, I am learning stuff like OOP, creating my own applications with interfaces, abstract classes and visual inheritance, as well as learning the .NET framework. Creating databases to the 3N form, etc.

I may also look to do some work for some charities. That may provide me an opportunity to put some of these skills to use.

 

[Developer2U]

Someone brought up a good point to me today.

She said, "Sometimes you have to take two steps back to go four steps forward". Meaning that if you are embracing a new technology, you might have to take a lesser paying job at first to get your feet wet.

 

[Craig0201]

Developer2U,

I'm not surprised you're having trouble.

Quote:
Well I brought up this idea to the manager at work, to upsize the current applications to something like MSDE and have a .net front end.

She acted as if I was doing this for selfish reasons and asked all kinds of questions as to why I want to do such a thing. I mentioned that Access databases are prone to getting corrupted when you get a certain number of users and certain amt of data. Her answer was to dump data into another database on a weekly basis.
End quote

This might be a legitimate answer. Why would MSDE and .Net be better? What will it do for their business? Have they got the number of users at which Access can get a bit flakey? What about the volume of data? What would be the effects of losing a day's/a week's/a month of work?

You've provided total evidence that is at best circumstantial. If you want them to do something your way, provide them with the evidence that it will help their business, not that "it's a good thing to do". It might be the better in terms of performance, security etc but you're asking for a lot of investment of your time which could be spent tackling other business problems whilst you learn .Net or similar.

 

[dyarwood]

I totally agree with Craig about your bosses response. I am assuming your boss is not the ultimate boss. As a result she will need more to take it to the next level to get approval to redirect your resources/spend capital on this idea. If it is a worthy idea then you need to come up with a project plan weighing up the pros and cons of the project, how it is going to be done and who is going to do it and a project time plan to show how long the project will take.

If your current infrastructure is set up for .net development and sql server dbs then there will be very little cost outlay. Make is all about how it will benefit the business and not yourself.

As an aside I will star Craig's post.

 

[Developer2U]

I decided to give up on trying to upgrade this project. They have no desire to use anything but Access for any database project.

It does not look like they intend to use anything but Access for the next 10 years. I will give up trying to learn the .NET platform.

Thanks for your responses.

 

[MasterRacker]

Don't stop learning .NET. Their 10 year plan now may not be the same in the future. Also, MS is moving the Office suite to a front end for SQL server, which, in the 2005 version has the .NET CLR embedded in it. My feeling is taht at some point, convergence will morph Access development into .NET development anyway.

[sub]Jeff
[purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me[/sub]

 

[MDXer]

Yes MS has built the .NET CLR into SQL Server but this is not a move to replace T-SQL with .NET. An assumption I have heard from many developers.

I do agreee that giving up on Learning .NET would be a mistake and keep you heading down the same path you are currently on. If you give up learning .NET now and next year the decision is made to move to .NET the company may look around and see they have no .NET developers and then replace developers with the needed .NET developers. Another scenario is you try to sell the company on moving to .NET not just try to propose .NET for the next project but build a case on why .NET would be beneficial to the company. Reason like Access has issues when a db exceeds X size or Y concurrent users isn't enough. You have to sell the technology your proposing in a manner that it is attractive to the business weather it be greater stability, flexability, cost or functionality.

I know this isn't always easy to get a company to make or even consider a technological change but it is possible. It has taken me almost 2 years to get my compnay to even consider replacing one of our current vendors with that of another and this has an impact of tens of thousands of dollars (that we would be able to make) per deployment which totals to something near an addition 250K - 400K in revenue comming to my company rather than spend licensing another product.

It's all a matter of know how and when to push the proposed technology.

Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck

 

[SQLSister]

What I did to get out of the Access trap was accept a job at a small company that used Access for internal applications and was getting started on some new external projects that used SQL Server. I wasn't hired to do those projects but they had no other database person and well you know how it goes. If you want to change career tracks a small company that will throw lots of challenges at you because they don't have anybody with the requisite experince can work very well. Then you can leverage that experience to move to a bigger more specialized company.

And don't worry so much about money, six months after being converted from an Access programmer to a SQL Server DBA I got a big pay raise and they have come steadily ever after. I currently earn over 70% more than I did as an Access developer in only 4.5 years' time. If I had stayed an Access developer I'd be lucky to have gotten 12% more over the same time period.

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