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Abuse of the development process 2
- Thread starter Dollie
- Start date
sleipnir214
Programmer
I don't think anyone not on-site can say whether your particular development process IS being abused. But nearly anything CAN be abused.
Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!
Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!
- Thread starter
- #3
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1
- #4
So are you asking if developers are basically untrustworthy unless someone watches them? Because that sounds like what you are asking.
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
- Thread starter
- #5
No it's just something I've seen happen multiple times to others (3 separate companies) in a very short period of time and was hoping it was a random event instead of a spreading phenomena.
Of the 3 companies, one found that the dev was a 2nd life addict and was only spending about an hour a day on actual development, one found the dev was contracted to multiple companies and was behind on 11 out of 11 projects, and one found that the developer was learning as he went along.
It's part curiosity, and partially because we're studying SDLC in one of my classes. It came to mind and I thought I'd ask around. It's truly NOTHING against developers. I know too many of them and work with several who would kick my butt if I lumped them in with these few "developers".
Now to get the phenomena-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo song out of my head.
Of the 3 companies, one found that the dev was a 2nd life addict and was only spending about an hour a day on actual development, one found the dev was contracted to multiple companies and was behind on 11 out of 11 projects, and one found that the developer was learning as he went along.
It's part curiosity, and partially because we're studying SDLC in one of my classes. It came to mind and I thought I'd ask around. It's truly NOTHING against developers. I know too many of them and work with several who would kick my butt if I lumped them in with these few "developers".
Now to get the phenomena-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo song out of my head.
In the case of the Learner I am guessing it is being indicated that he had no clue what he was doing as he went along?
I am programming a small system for the company I am at, and although I know most of what they require, they every so often ask for something I haven't done yet. Rather than tell them that it cannot be done, I just learn how to do it. Although, the boss knows that I do not know everything, and I mention when it comes up, "Well, I haven't quite done something like that yet, but I will learn how".
~
Chuck Norris is the reason Waldo is hiding.
I am programming a small system for the company I am at, and although I know most of what they require, they every so often ask for something I haven't done yet. Rather than tell them that it cannot be done, I just learn how to do it. Although, the boss knows that I do not know everything, and I mention when it comes up, "Well, I haven't quite done something like that yet, but I will learn how".
~
Chuck Norris is the reason Waldo is hiding.
Whenever you expect people to work independently without supervision you will find abuses of that trust relationship. I don't think it is endemic to any one specific industry. I think what could potentially exacerbate this in the IT industry is that often the managers involved are not necessarily fully conversant with the technologies involved. This makes it easier for individuals to hide this sort of activity (although not easy enough in the examples that you provided).
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
Bandenjamin
Programmer
With regard to the person who was learning as they went. I would say nothing wrong with that, provided they are upfront about their knowledge and getting the job done correctly. The one who is 11 of 11 behind, well he needs to figure that out. And the 2nd life guy, Major issue there
I don't think it's an epidemic but more of an individual problem
--Dan
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
I don't think it's an epidemic but more of an individual problem
--Dan
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
lionelhill
Technical User
If (GoHomeTime - GetToWorkTime) - (FaceBookHours + SecondLifeLogonTime) < ContractedHours then AskQuestions
- Thread starter
- #10
Just a few posts and I feel much better. Thanks for putting your thoughts out there.
And just so you know, The Learner had worked with a few point and click programs, and put himself out there as a "expert webmaster" in several languages (C++, VBA, etc). (This is where I support testing during the interview). After being hired, the coding blew his mind. This guy sold himself as an expert, Opieo, and was expected to be what he said he was. A lot of us learn some things on the job, and I've been in your position myself several times as I'm sure many have.
I think it's going to be up to managers to learn a little project management so they know what to expect in the development cycle, and know when to expect it.
And just so you know, The Learner had worked with a few point and click programs, and put himself out there as a "expert webmaster" in several languages (C++, VBA, etc). (This is where I support testing during the interview). After being hired, the coding blew his mind. This guy sold himself as an expert, Opieo, and was expected to be what he said he was. A lot of us learn some things on the job, and I've been in your position myself several times as I'm sure many have.
I think it's going to be up to managers to learn a little project management so they know what to expect in the development cycle, and know when to expect it.
I understand Dollie. I try hard not to overestimate myself or my abilities. I know there are some categories in programming that I know very little about. And until I take some personal time to learn those, I do not care to advertise myself as knowing them.
I frown upon coders who do such things and would like to think they are entirely isolated incedents. Judging from the other's replies, they are mostly isolated.
@lionelhill
Nice. =)
~
Chuck Norris is the reason Waldo is hiding.
I frown upon coders who do such things and would like to think they are entirely isolated incedents. Judging from the other's replies, they are mostly isolated.
@lionelhill
Nice. =)
~
Chuck Norris is the reason Waldo is hiding.
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- #12
FWIW, Dollie, I've been in the IT industry for 35 years and I'd say I've only run into four cases of "abuse" as you define it. Many more times I've had dealings with people who are marginally competent, but that you can deal with.
I'm personally offended by those who inflate their abilities beyond normal puffery because they're basically thieves.
I'm also irked by the "consultant" who has multiple projects going and gives all of them short shrift. But if I step back, I understand that the outfits who hire this type are the cause of that problem, so I don't shed any tears over this.
This industry is tough on developers, which is why so many of them try to get into management as fast as possible. The pace of change and trying to determine (i.e., guess) which new technology one should learn are daunting. And you never get to a point where you've done enough. That should scare people away from pursuing an IT career.
A lot of the blame for much of this behavior falls square on the shoulders of the employers. Decades ago, when an employer needed a new skill, it provided training. Today that doesn't happen so much: they insist on a 100% fit before hiring.
But yeah, there are a lot of people in IT who just shouldn't be. Blame that on the people who predict where the jobs will be and the people who make career moves based on those predictions. Anyone who chooses a career path without regard to her aptitudes or interests is an idiot.
To return to your original question, developers abuse their employers, but employers abuse developers. I think the workplace has just evolved to this, a race to the bottom.
I'm personally offended by those who inflate their abilities beyond normal puffery because they're basically thieves.
I'm also irked by the "consultant" who has multiple projects going and gives all of them short shrift. But if I step back, I understand that the outfits who hire this type are the cause of that problem, so I don't shed any tears over this.
This industry is tough on developers, which is why so many of them try to get into management as fast as possible. The pace of change and trying to determine (i.e., guess) which new technology one should learn are daunting. And you never get to a point where you've done enough. That should scare people away from pursuing an IT career.
A lot of the blame for much of this behavior falls square on the shoulders of the employers. Decades ago, when an employer needed a new skill, it provided training. Today that doesn't happen so much: they insist on a 100% fit before hiring.
But yeah, there are a lot of people in IT who just shouldn't be. Blame that on the people who predict where the jobs will be and the people who make career moves based on those predictions. Anyone who chooses a career path without regard to her aptitudes or interests is an idiot.
To return to your original question, developers abuse their employers, but employers abuse developers. I think the workplace has just evolved to this, a race to the bottom.
I find a lot of my stress is caused by lack of an established process, which leads to just about every project being done in a more or less ad-hoc fashion. And rushed too, because we don't normally get word from our account execs until its' too late to do any proper planning. I wonder if working in an environment with no established process long enough makes people view the process as their salvation from stress, and not a way to improve workflow and efficiency?
Hard to say without talking to anyone, but I could see it. Hope it doesn't happen to me (I think I started making noise soon enough. We're even starting to see some progress outside our little department
)
[small]----signature below----[/small]
Majority rule don't work in mental institutions
My Crummy Web Page
Hard to say without talking to anyone, but I could see it. Hope it doesn't happen to me (I think I started making noise soon enough. We're even starting to see some progress outside our little department
)[small]----signature below----[/small]
Majority rule don't work in mental institutions
My Crummy Web Page
traingamer
Programmer
I've run into some of each of the above.
When I was the IT manager at a small law firm, several (non IT) workers at the remote offices spent more time (okay nearly all of their time) on 'romantic chat' sites than on work when their boss was in court. They seemed to forget that we logged all those connections and had remote access to 'see what they see'. They were fired.
At another job (small company), the network/hardware IT guys had the boss snowed on the amount of time it actually took them to do their job functions, so they had 3 network guys where 1 (probably part time) person was needed. They spent great amounts of time running external businesses, surfing the web and what not. The three developers' functions were better understood by management, so we were somewhat more productive (and had more realistic goals).
As to the original question, the answer would be sometimes. It's going to depend on the individuals and the corporate culture.
It can also be abused by management, where unreasonable goals are set for teams and individuals, especially where the development process is not fully understood. This can lead to required overtime, high turnover and low morale.
Greg
"Personally, I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught." - Winston Churchill
When I was the IT manager at a small law firm, several (non IT) workers at the remote offices spent more time (okay nearly all of their time) on 'romantic chat' sites than on work when their boss was in court. They seemed to forget that we logged all those connections and had remote access to 'see what they see'. They were fired.
At another job (small company), the network/hardware IT guys had the boss snowed on the amount of time it actually took them to do their job functions, so they had 3 network guys where 1 (probably part time) person was needed. They spent great amounts of time running external businesses, surfing the web and what not. The three developers' functions were better understood by management, so we were somewhat more productive (and had more realistic goals).
As to the original question, the answer would be sometimes. It's going to depend on the individuals and the corporate culture.
It can also be abused by management, where unreasonable goals are set for teams and individuals, especially where the development process is not fully understood. This can lead to required overtime, high turnover and low morale.
Greg
"Personally, I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught." - Winston Churchill
Dollie,
The biggest red flag for me was the "expert webmaster" who designs in C++. Those two just don't go together.
What it really comes down to in that case though is the interview. Someone should have interviewed that person before they were hired, and that someone should have known enough to be the BS detector. If you don't have a certain amount of knowledge then you'll have a very difficult time weeding out the clowns who don't know anything. At that point you have to begin to rely on and verify certifications, degrees, or other objective criteria. That's no guarantee of success, but it usually increases the liklihood that they know something rather than nothing. Barring that though, the only other real option is to go back to consulting/contracting companies that screen before hiring, and even then you have to at least find a reputable company.
One other key problem is that people who don't know a lot about a particular subject typically don't realize how little they know about that subject. In other words, the ignorant don't know just how ignorant they are. So they often times tend to overestimate their knowledge and abilities. It's entirely possible that this guy didn't know just how little he knew, and is now trying to make the best of the situation.
Regarding the larger issue, it is virtually a given that in any workplace of significant size there will be some people who abuse/take advantage of company resources, the good will of managers and co-workers, etc. You just have to weed them out and replace them with good people.
Unfortunately, technology is an area that is ripe for abuse. The average manager or employee knows enough about IT to be able to do their daily work, but knows next to nothing about IT infrastructure, development, etc. So when it comes time to hire they have no frame of reference with regards to needs, capabilities, or expectations. They often find themselves at the mercy of a person who either promises the moon or sells them a solution that ends up being many times what they need simply because the manager doesn't take the time to dig into things and learn about what he needs.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
The biggest red flag for me was the "expert webmaster" who designs in C++. Those two just don't go together.
What it really comes down to in that case though is the interview. Someone should have interviewed that person before they were hired, and that someone should have known enough to be the BS detector. If you don't have a certain amount of knowledge then you'll have a very difficult time weeding out the clowns who don't know anything. At that point you have to begin to rely on and verify certifications, degrees, or other objective criteria. That's no guarantee of success, but it usually increases the liklihood that they know something rather than nothing. Barring that though, the only other real option is to go back to consulting/contracting companies that screen before hiring, and even then you have to at least find a reputable company.
One other key problem is that people who don't know a lot about a particular subject typically don't realize how little they know about that subject. In other words, the ignorant don't know just how ignorant they are. So they often times tend to overestimate their knowledge and abilities. It's entirely possible that this guy didn't know just how little he knew, and is now trying to make the best of the situation.
Regarding the larger issue, it is virtually a given that in any workplace of significant size there will be some people who abuse/take advantage of company resources, the good will of managers and co-workers, etc. You just have to weed them out and replace them with good people.
Unfortunately, technology is an area that is ripe for abuse. The average manager or employee knows enough about IT to be able to do their daily work, but knows next to nothing about IT infrastructure, development, etc. So when it comes time to hire they have no frame of reference with regards to needs, capabilities, or expectations. They often find themselves at the mercy of a person who either promises the moon or sells them a solution that ends up being many times what they need simply because the manager doesn't take the time to dig into things and learn about what he needs.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
Maybe, maybe not. Anyone who has been in IT long enough is bound to have acquired multiple competencies. You'd have to examine how these claims are made and how they're related. I'd be skeptical of these claims coming from a 24-year-old, but I'd be skeptical of either claim coming from a 24-year-old.kmcferrin said:
- Moderator
- #17
Dollie:
I guess it also depends on your definition of "Abuse".
As you (may) know, I wear many hats here at work. Heck, just 10 minutes ago, I was helping maintenance diagnose an air conditioner (lol). But, I program, do network administration, repair PC's and printers, pretty much a "one man shop" in a 200,000 square foot building.
The funny thing is, I need to be in a "mood" to program. I have to be in that mindset. And often, that mindset is disrupted; in other words, I am ready to write some code, and someone walks into my office with their laptop that isn't working for some reason. That pretty much blows any chance of me coding for the day.
When I *do* start coding, I'm usually pretty efficient at it, and can write several hundred lines of code in a day. If I start to lose my edge, however, I'll get up, have some coffee, go visit with nursing, go have a cigarette... and even then, I can't count the number of times I've been out having a smoke, and think to myself "Ahh! If I load that into an array first....." so, to the casual observer it may seem as if I'm "slacking off", but honestly, I get as much, if not more, thinking done wandering around with a cup of coffee in my hand than if I were sitting staring at my screen.
I was once compared to an artist by my boss (in front of other employees). He said "You can't put an artist in front of a piece of canvas, and say 'Paint'. You can't put Greg in front of a computer and say 'Program'. He needs to think about it, process it, find his inspiration, then he goes in and writes. So when you see him wandering with a cup of coffee and a puzzled look on his face, he's not slacking off... he's going through that phase of his art."
It was a great compliment.
I don't consider myself a slacker, by any means... and, sometimes, I get my inspiration here at Tek-Tips... I'm not sluffing... I'm processing.
Just my 2¢
-Cole's Law: Shredded cabbage
--Greg
I guess it also depends on your definition of "Abuse".
As you (may) know, I wear many hats here at work. Heck, just 10 minutes ago, I was helping maintenance diagnose an air conditioner (lol). But, I program, do network administration, repair PC's and printers, pretty much a "one man shop" in a 200,000 square foot building.
The funny thing is, I need to be in a "mood" to program. I have to be in that mindset. And often, that mindset is disrupted; in other words, I am ready to write some code, and someone walks into my office with their laptop that isn't working for some reason. That pretty much blows any chance of me coding for the day.
When I *do* start coding, I'm usually pretty efficient at it, and can write several hundred lines of code in a day. If I start to lose my edge, however, I'll get up, have some coffee, go visit with nursing, go have a cigarette... and even then, I can't count the number of times I've been out having a smoke, and think to myself "Ahh! If I load that into an array first....." so, to the casual observer it may seem as if I'm "slacking off", but honestly, I get as much, if not more, thinking done wandering around with a cup of coffee in my hand than if I were sitting staring at my screen.
I was once compared to an artist by my boss (in front of other employees). He said "You can't put an artist in front of a piece of canvas, and say 'Paint'. You can't put Greg in front of a computer and say 'Program'. He needs to think about it, process it, find his inspiration, then he goes in and writes. So when you see him wandering with a cup of coffee and a puzzled look on his face, he's not slacking off... he's going through that phase of his art."
It was a great compliment.
I don't consider myself a slacker, by any means... and, sometimes, I get my inspiration here at Tek-Tips... I'm not sluffing... I'm processing.
Just my 2¢
-Cole's Law: Shredded cabbage
--Greg
Right, I get the fact that people can have multiple competencies. Perhaps I was a bit too literal, but from the description that I read further up the thread it sounded like he was claiming that he was developing web content in C++ and VBA, which aren't used in web development. That's why it looks like a red flag to me.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
benlinkknilneb
Programmer
From my experience, when you have an IT type reporting to someone with little to no knowledge of IT, you get one of two people:
1) The guy who does it all, loves it, and does it well.
2) The guy who does a snowjob and does his own thing when he should be focusing on the job he's paid to do.
I used to work for #2, now that I have his job, I'm trying to be #1. He'd have been here for a long time if I hadn't stepped up and shown them what was happening. As far as I'm concerned, it goes back to a good hiring practice. You don't hire people you don't think you could trust, and once you've got them on staff, do things to encourage their trust rather than abusing them like the typical PHB would do.
Oh, and gbaughma, that was a great analogy your boss used to describe you... I'm going to make it my new email sig!
Ben
The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. - Douglas Adams
1) The guy who does it all, loves it, and does it well.
2) The guy who does a snowjob and does his own thing when he should be focusing on the job he's paid to do.
I used to work for #2, now that I have his job, I'm trying to be #1. He'd have been here for a long time if I hadn't stepped up and shown them what was happening. As far as I'm concerned, it goes back to a good hiring practice. You don't hire people you don't think you could trust, and once you've got them on staff, do things to encourage their trust rather than abusing them like the typical PHB would do.
Oh, and gbaughma, that was a great analogy your boss used to describe you... I'm going to make it my new email sig!
Ben
The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. - Douglas Adams
- Moderator
- #20
I was, to say the least, flattered when my boss said that about me.
The cool thing that has happened since then, is now the end users (the ones using the web system on a daily basis that I've written) come up to me with drawings, and say "Hey, if we could have a web page that does this, with this drop down here, and these checkboxes, etc. that would make our jobs easier!"
Of *COURSE* that's what I end up writing, because they're already vested in it.
It makes me proud to know that I have built that type of rapport with the users here, and that they feel they can come to me with ideas (which makes my job easier).
Just my 2¢
-Cole's Law: Shredded cabbage
--Greg
The cool thing that has happened since then, is now the end users (the ones using the web system on a daily basis that I've written) come up to me with drawings, and say "Hey, if we could have a web page that does this, with this drop down here, and these checkboxes, etc. that would make our jobs easier!"
Of *COURSE* that's what I end up writing, because they're already vested in it.
It makes me proud to know that I have built that type of rapport with the users here, and that they feel they can come to me with ideas (which makes my job easier).
Just my 2¢
-Cole's Law: Shredded cabbage
--Greg
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