A word of advice

[VhdlForLife]

I've noticed that lately there has been a proliferation of student question in the forums. These are rather obvious posts since they have very specific application requirements and format. Personally I think that it is okay to get help for your college assignments, however, I think that it should only be done as a last resort or only when you have no way of continuing. The help sought after should just be hints or advice on possible avenues of approach. It would really be unfair if the COMPLETE solution is given to these posts! Think of the work that other students would have had to do.<br><br>So here I'm calling for your support to only give strategic help when you see these posts so that the person is helped by the advice you give for the approach. You only cause harm when you reply with a COMPLETE solution since the student would never have learnt to do the assignments. We wouldn't want the next generation (i.e. our future colleague) to be weak in simple program generation. Let's make these forums an even better place!<br><br>Thanks,<br>VhdlForLife

 

[BruceHesher]

I must disagree with you.&nbsp;&nbsp;Please understand that I am a programmer, a college instructor, and a college student myself.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When a &quot;complete solution&quot; is provided it rarely fits into the program that you are developing without more work to be done.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;There is still effort (and learning) to be done on the part of the person who asked the question.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If responses become watered down to what the respondant thinks is just enough to get the person on the right path, the usefullness of the forum will suffer.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm not saying that people should give lengthy responses to vague questions. Actually just the opposite.&nbsp;&nbsp;Posts that are specific and limited in scope in order to assist the developer through a problem are more likely to get answered.

 

[rgordley]

I take a view midway between those already presented.&nbsp;&nbsp;I believe that integral parts of the programmer mentality must be problem solving skills and resourcefulness.&nbsp;&nbsp;In my own professional life, when something arises that I cannot easily solve using my stack of manuals and (haha) microsoft documentation, I will use ANY source in order to get the problem solved.&nbsp;&nbsp;Finding the right source is part of the process.&nbsp;&nbsp;On the other hand...spoon feeding solutions that can be solved by a little thought and access to a modest programming library (hopefully accessible in the student situation) do no one any favors.&nbsp;&nbsp;What BruceHesher says is undoubtedly true, and one very good way to learn programming is to fit someone else's code to your own specific needs. So I would favor pointing in the right direction on more elementary questions and presenting detailed solutions on the more obscure problems.

 

[chiph]

rgordley&nbsp;&nbsp;-<br><br>I think VhdlForLife was saying that some people are likely to take any answer supplied, and give it to their professor verbatim.&nbsp;&nbsp;Obviously, a concientious student would first test their code to see if it works <i>before</i> handing the assignment in, but some people aren't going to do that. :-(<br><br>Some of the other members & I had had a very similar discussion a while back (the poster had posted his professor's assignment word-for-word, including table & figure numbers), and the consensus was to only point the person in the general direction of a solution when it was <i>obvious</i> the person wasn't really interested in learning, but only wanted a cut-n-dried answer.<br><br>When a poster is clearly looking for more than a simple answer, and seems to be generally interested in programming (VB and/or other languages), then I'm more than happy to help with anything they want to know -- I'll talk their ear off, more than likely!&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>I'm also happy to answer any questions about programming as a career.&nbsp;&nbsp;In college, I only had one professor who did any programming on the side (he developed and sold a program to commercial astrologers!), and he gave us all the best advice on what to <b>really</b> expect in our first jobs.&nbsp;&nbsp;I've seen & learned a lot since then, and don't mind passing it on.<br><br>Chip H.<br>

 

[Karl Blessing]

I dont mind the student posting, but I do ask that they do some part of the work and show effort that they need help, and not an answer <p>Karl<br><a href=mailto:kb244@kb244.8m.com>kb244@kb244.8m.com</a><br><a href=

http://kb244.8m.com>

</a><br>Experienced in , or have messed with : VC++, Borland C++ Builder, VJ++6(starting),VB-Dos, VB1 thru VB6, Delphi 3 pro, Borland C++ 3(DOS), Borland C++ 4.5, HTML, ASP(somewhat), QBasic(least i didnt start with COBOL)

 

[Quehay]

I think the submission by vhdlForLife was paternalistic,<br>unwarranted, and just plain arrogant.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am one of the students who use this forum to resolve sticky problems for which my experience/knowledge, available resources, and the always cryptic MS Help are not sufficient.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am also a former university level Humanities instructor, high school teacher, and current graduate student in addition to my computer programming pursuits.&nbsp;&nbsp;A large part of coming to grips with the programming environment is finding solutions to problems that one has not previously encountered.&nbsp;&nbsp;No programmer, whatever the experience level, possesses the encyclopaedic and practical knowledge to be able to tackle any and all situations that come up in design or troubleshooting without written or collegial reference.&nbsp;&nbsp;I have thoroughly enjoyed this forum, and I am grateful for the cogent and useful advice I've received from tipmasters such as Mike Lacey, Nick B., and others.&nbsp;&nbsp;My current course of study involves being thrown &quot;into the weeds&quot; with only desired outcomes and a bare rubric of code ideas to get started.&nbsp;&nbsp;The idea is that coping skills, such as participation in discussion groups, are acquired rather than mere rote learning and &quot;cookbook&quot; style step by step plodding through the properties of labels and textboxes.<br><br>The responsibility for withholding forum advice lies with the instructors of courses; they should be aware of such groups and be explicit regarding their expectations vis a vis such advice.&nbsp;&nbsp;vdhlForLife: Let's be about the business of discussing code and leave the &quot;op-ed&quot; pieces for more appropriate forums (you will not see my opinions again either).

 

[VhdlForLife]

It's obvious that many people have misunderstood the reason for my original post. Let me emphasize that I am <b>NOT</b> against students posting questions; I welcome <b>ALL</b> students with open arms. The <b>ONLY</b> problem I have is the posts that are <b>VERY OBVIOUSLY</b> homework assignments and the request is for someone to <b>do the assignment for them</b> <u>(which they will then be able to hand in verbatim)</u> without any work done on their own.

 

[DannyB]

Maybe the virtue is in the middle and not extremes. Personally I don't answer vague problems. If the poster can be specific, then i think he's being professional, even if it is a student. I used to work with teams of developers, and since i've been working alone, i sometimes have to spend time researching, instead of asking someone else. its really good to have someone else brainstorming you on a piece of code. the result comes out ususally better and faster. <p> <br><a href=mailto: > </a><br><a href= > </a><br>

 

[MikeLacey]

look - this is not the place for a flamewar - take it somewhere else please<br> <p>Mike<br><a href=mailto:Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com>Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com</a><br><a href=

http://www.cargill.com/>

Cargill's Corporate Web Site</a><br>Please don't send me email questions without posting them as well. Post the question and send me a note saying "Have a look at so-and-so would you?" - that's fine.

 

[rgordley]

I don't think that honest opinions expressed without hostility constitute a &quot;flame war&quot;

 

[Alt255]

Let's live and let live. We were all students at one time.<br>VhdlForLife may have used the <b>bold</b> font to an extreme but he didn't seem to be shouting or flaming.<br><br>In regard to students: it is the responsibility of all Tek-Tips members to maintain a readable forum. Our responses to students and newbies must be weighed against the good of the community. If you want to help a student you need only consider your personal, moral imperative: will I harm the world by making life too easy? Should I try to discipline the newbies by forcing them to find their own answers?<br><br>Don't worry about the students. They will be signing our paychecks soon enough.<br> <p> <br><a href=mailto:InterruptX@excite.com>InterruptX@excite.com</a><br><a href=

http://vorpalcom.netfirms.com>Retrofit

Contingency Implementation</a><br>Send me suggestions or comments on my current software project.

 

[Aleena]

I just wanted to add an additional perspective from a &quot;student&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;Fall term when I was taking my first programming course in Visual Basic there were several times when I posted desperate help questions in this forum.&nbsp;&nbsp;The responses I received from all of you were extremely helpful.&nbsp;&nbsp;There are times when a student just starting out needs a kick in the right direction and I don't believe there is anything wrong with providing advice. However, I do disagree with students who are looking for answers before they have explored the question independently.&nbsp;&nbsp;I would think that it would not be difficult to discern between someone who has attempted to solve a problem and is frustrated with their lack of an adequate solution and a student who simply wants someone to &quot;do their homework&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>I also want to say that Tek-tips is the absolute best programming forum on the web and I really appreciate all of the help its members have provided me. There have been several times you all saved me from tearing my hair out <br><br>Now if I could just find someone in the Java forum to help me with this evil casting problem !! (Any takers?? I have posted in the java forum but the response time there is always extremely slow...)<br><br>Aleena

 

[MikeLacey]

Thanks for the kind words Aleena. I tend to agree, you can usually tell the difference between someone who's being lazy and someone who's &quot;stuck&quot;.<br><br>Sorry about your Java problem; I don't know much about coffee.<br><br>Regards<br> <p>Mike<br><a href=mailto:Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com>Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com</a><br><a href=

http://www.cargill.com/>

Cargill's Corporate Web Site</a><br>Please don't send me email questions without posting them in Tek-Tips as well. Better yet -- Post the question in Tek-Tips and send me a note saying "Have a look at so-and-so in the thingy forum would you?"

 

[chiph]

Hi Aleena!<br><br>I remember your asking questions last fall, and IIRC, your posts were well written.&nbsp;&nbsp;The poster I had a problem with recently didn't put much effort into phrasing their question.&nbsp;&nbsp;The very first point made in my copy of &quot;Winnie The Pooh on Problem Solving&quot; is knowing the correct question to ask.<br><br>Sort of like the old joke about the balloonist lost in the clouds, sees a person in a tall office building, and shouts the question &quot;Where am I?&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;The answer shouted back was &quot;In a balloon&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>A totally correct answer.&nbsp;&nbsp;But it didn't solve the baloonist's problem, because the question itself was poor.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's even worse in computer science, because we're all so literal-minded.<br><br>Oh, and the answer to your casting question is: &quot;misplaced parenthesis&quot; (Was that you who was asking how to cast the output of popping off a stack?)<br><br>Chip H.<br><br>

 

[Aleena]

Hi Chip<br><br>Yeah I figured that out about an hour after I posted. Funny how the smallest/stupidest little oversights can drive a person so crazy <br><br>Aleena