2008 Season Opener for: "Irritating Words and Expressions" 1

[SantaMufasa]

As several have requested, this thread puts to bed the old, longer-than-comfortable thread that has a similar title.

<soap box>

My Pet Peeve of verbal irritation is the seemingly universal abuse of pronouns on either side of any form/conjugation/tense of the verb infinitive, "to be".

This verb is unique in that it implies equality. As we know from maths class, "If A = B, then B = A". In English, this correlates to "If A is B, then B is A". This implies that if we use pronouns on either side of any usage of the verb "to be", the pronouns should be nominative/subjective, not objective.

Specifically, when we use "to be", pronouns should be subjective: I, he, she, we, they; not objective: me, him, her, us, them.

Abuse: It's me.
Correction: It's I.
Reverse to prove: "I am it."; not "Me am it."

Abuse: The winners should be us.
Correction: The winners should be we.
Reverse to prove: "We should be the winners."; not "Us should be the winners."

Abuse: The most qualified is her.
Correction: The most qualified is she.
Reverse to prove: "She is the most qualified."; not "Her is the most qualified."

Sammy Davis Jr. Lyric abuse: "I've Gotta Be Me."
Less poetic correction: "I Must Be I".
Reverse to prove: "I must be I"; not "Me have got to be I."

So, let's please always use subjective/nominative pronouns when using any form/conjucation/tense of the infinitive, "to be".

</soap box>



Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[kjv1611]

On the "off of" and "from" comparison, that might be a good thread to take elsewhere, as it appears there are some differing opinions on correct usage. I'll volunteer to start one.

See thread1256-1447359

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[Chance1234]

I hold my hand up to using Paradigm in a meeting this morning.



Chance,

F, G + 3MSTG

 

[flapeyre]

I hold my hand up to using Paradigm in a meeting this morning.

In the US, that's 20 cents.

Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo.

 

[Chance1234]

It's in the post

Chance,

F, G + 3MSTG

 

[rasETL]

I am getting fed up with sports personalities who use the phrases "I mean" or "you know" numerous times when answering Interviewer questions.

I mean, it is really frustrating, and you know, gets on my nerves.

 

[SantaMufasa]

Another stalling device from sports personalities:

Yoam say'n?

No, Jock, I don't know what you are saying until you learn to speak understandable English!!! Yikes!

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[rasETL]

I guess the question is...

What would you rather have

- Fluent English
- A $10,000,000 annual salary

 

[SantaMufasa]

What would you rather have...Fluent English...A $10,000,000 annual salary

Last time I checked, those were certainly not mutually exclusive, Yoam say'n?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[flapeyre]

Chance,

It's a pun:

Spoiler

paradigm sounds like "pair o' dimes", which is 20 cents.

When someone asks me, "You know what I'm saying?", I'm tempted to tell them, "Well, actually, I don't..."

Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo.

 

[risby]

Abuse: The winners should be us.
Correction: The winners should be we.
Reverse to prove: "We should be the winners."; not "Us should be the winners."

I would be pleased if you could give a reference to an authoritative site for this "rule" and method of proving it, Mustafa.

It seems quite bizarre to say:

the winners should be we
the winner should be he
the winner should be she

us, him and her sound right in these phrases when they come after the verb and we he and she sound right before the verb.

Where did you learn that it should be otherwise?

==========================================

I phoned the local ramblers club today, and this bloke just went on and on.

 

[risby]

Oops, sorry SantaMufasa I got you name wrong.

Apologies.

==========================================

I phoned the local ramblers club today, and this bloke just went on and on.

 

[Opieo]

As much as I agree with many of these, I still think the verbal pauses (uh, um, like, you know) have to be at the top of my list.

Also not far behind is people who "seen" things when they really "saw" it.

"I seen it the other day"
Ohhh no you didn't ..

~
Chuck Norris is the reason Waldo is hiding.

 

[LizSara]

today's favourite is 'thingyo'. i've only every heard it in Liverpool and it seems to refer to something that the speaker isn't sure of the name of.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[kjv1611]

risby,

Not sure why you are having a hard time with the subject/object usage of pronouns. I thought Mufasa's examples were more than explanatory.

The winners should be us.

The (definite article) winners (subject) should (modal) be (main verb - form of the verb "to be") us (direct object - should be predicate nominative form, "we" in this case)

Here is one link regarding the parts of speech:

http://www.eslus.com/LESSONS/GRAMMAR/POS/pos3.htm

Not sure that site specifically covers the topic at hand - I just couldn't remember the word, "modal."

Proper English grammar that involves the main verb being a form of the verb, "to be," requires a predicate nominative or predicate adjective (or for the direct object to be left missing: "I am.")

The reason is that "to be"... "is"... "am" is sort of like an equation (1 + 1 = 2... "1 plus 1 is two").

I am he.

The predicate nominative always takes the subjective form.

Here's a link specific to this thought:

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000021.htm

Pronouns in the Predicate Nominative

In standard written English, the personal pronouns in the predicate nominative are the same as they would be in the subject. Most Americans do not speak this way, but it is grammatically correct.

The nominative case follows a linking verb to rename the subject.

Incorrect: The winner was her. (Objective case)

Correct: The winner was she. (Nominative case)

She is a predicate nominative. It uses the same case as the subject since it simply renames the subject.

Even though we may often say, "It's me" the grammatically correct way is "It's I."

Actually, their example fits your example quite well.

Hope that helps..

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[Stella740pl]

Also not far behind is people who "seen" things when they really "saw" it.

"I seen it the other day"

I think they just "swallow" the modal verb "have" (or don't know about it?).
What they are actually saying is this:
"I've seen it the other day".

Though I agree that, in this case, they actually "saw" things "the other day", not "seen" or even "have seen".

 

[kjv1611]

But they must've seen!

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[risby]

The predicate nominative always takes the subjective form.

Really ... and you're not sure why I'm having a hard time!

:-{

==========================================

I phoned the local ramblers club today, and this bloke just went on and on.

 

[kjv1611]

[LOL]

I'm just saying.... if you want to talk grammar rules, then SantaMufasa's examples and all are correct. If you want to talk common usage, well, just because it's used doesn't mean it's correct.

Example... Posted Speed Limit on interstate is 65, but most everyone is driving 70 or 75 - that doesn't mean it's correct to do so.

--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Though I agree that, in this case, they actually "saw" things "the other day", not "seen" or even "have seen".
Or they were trying to use the past perfect tense and meant to say, "I had seen it the other day" or "I'd seen it the other day".

==> Really ... and you're not sure why I'm having a hard time!
When a personal pronoun appears in the predicate, it can be tricky when to use the subjective form and when to use the objective form. A basic rule of thumb that I use is to ask the question, "Does the pronoun in the predicate refer back to the subject?" If yes, then use the subjective form of the pronoun, otherwise, use the objective form.

For example: The winners should be (us/we). Does the pronoun (us/we) refer back to the subject (winners)? In this case, yes it does, so we use the subjective form of the pronoun: The winners should be we.

Sally gave the book to (us/we). Does the pronoun (us/we) refer back to the subject (Sally)? In this case, no, it does not, so we should use the objective form of the pronoun: Sally gave the book to us.

--------------
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[SantaMufasa]

I would be pleased if you could give a reference to an authoritative site for this "rule" and method of proving it, Mufasa.

It seems quite bizarre to say:

the winners should be we
the winner should be he
the winner should be she...

The reason that the correct construction sounds so bizarre is, in my opinion, because the incorrect construction is virtually universal, and our ears have become attuned to accepting this abomination as standard.


As far as "a reference to an authoritative site", if you Google for the terms: [Pronouns "Predicate Nominative"], 8,420 links result...all of which agree that when using a pronoun with any form of the infinitive, to be (thus causing a predicate nominative situation), we should properly use nominative/subjective (and not objective) pronouns.

All I can say to this as "sounding bizarre" is the old addage:

If 500 million people say a silly thing, it doesn't make it any less of a silly thing.

Among those 8,420 links is both KJV's well-stated citation and this excellent explanation (interestingly from a Polish site that teaches proper English, Angielski.edu.pl

Pronouns in the Predicate Nominative

In standard written English, the personal pronouns in the predicate nominative are the same as they would be in the subject. Most Americans do not speak this way, but it is grammatically correct. (emphasis is SantaMufasa's)

The nominative case follows a linking verb to rename the subject.

Incorrect: The winner was her. (Objective case)
Correct: The winner was she. (Nominative case)

She is a predicate nominative. It uses the same case as the subject since it simply renames the subject.

Even though we may often say, "It's me" the grammatically correct way is "It's I."

us, him and her sound right in these phrases when they come after the verb and we he and she sound right before the verb.

The phenomenon that you cite is generally the case: (In proper active-voice construction), Pronouns (along with other nouns) that appear before the verb are typically the subject (the "Doer&quot of the sentence, and thus should use the nominative/subjective case (I, you, he, she, it, we, they, who). Pronouns (along with other nouns) that appear following the verb typically form the predicate of the sentence, and as a result, typically become the object (the "Done to&quot of the sentence, and under those typical circumstances would use the objective case (me, you, him, her, it, us, them, whom).



But, in English, there is a special case/exception when the predicate is not being "done to" by the subject, but instead is "equal to" the subject. The typical verb infinitive that represents "equality" is to be. When you use any conjugation or tense of "to be", then the writer/speaker is drawing an equality between the subject and the predicate. In English, when the equality involves a "describing word", then we call it a predicate adjective. If the equality involves another noun, then we call it a predicate nominative:[ul][li]Predicate Adjective Examples: "I am happy", "She was elated", "We will be prompt".[/li][li]Predicate Nominative Examples: "They were the winners", "I am a programmer", "He will be a graduate in Spring."[/li][/ul]

My point being that nouns or pronouns that are predicate nominatives are not objective case (me, you, him, her, it, us, them, whom), but instead, they assume the nominative/subjective case (I, you, he, she, it, we, they, who).

Where did you learn that it should be otherwise?

First in Elementary School, then reiterated in Junior High School, High School, College, then most recently in the "Precision Writing and Speaking" curriculum that we use for corporate purposes.


The reason that many (if not most) English students miss out on this important training is (typically) from their teachers' having never learned the principle either...One does not teach what one has not learned. <grin>


Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]