2-Pair CAT 3 Being Phased Out? 4

[Dexman]

I recently went to a nearby electronics store to try to order a 1000' box of plenum 2-pair CAT 3 cable.

The gentleman who purchases stock for the store told me that both Beldin & General Cable, the 2 brands he carries, have stopped production of 2-pair CAT 3 cable despite the fact that both manufacturers still list these cables on their respective websites.

Are there any manufacturers still producing this type of cable?

5E with its larger overall diameter and 2 extra pairs seems to be overkill for a strictly voice telephone system (Avaya Partner ACS) which requires only 2 pairs. There are no plans in the works to migrate telephone service over to VOIP.

 

[skip555]

why would you use two pair or cat 3 ?

we have used 4 pair for years and cat5 only for probably 3 or 4 years .

primary cost in cabling is labor , what happens on your two pair run if they decide to add a fax or modem or a second phone ?

We always try to pull twice the needed cable pair at minimum.

 

[Dexman]

Hi Skip!

The cabling is between the Partner ACS and the 18D or 34D desk sets. (I have a thread in the Partner Forum and have been exchanging posts with Touchtone Tommy and Aarenot about various aspects of my project.)

The install is in a church. There is only 1 fax machine and it fills the need quite nicely. We may add a modem to one of the available station ports on the ACS to use for remote programming of the building's heating/air conditioning system, but that is about a year off.

There are only 2 voice lines and 1 fax line and we don't anticipate any additional lines for the foreseeable future.

I do have a supply of CAT 6E on hand, but it seems like overkill for the Partner system.

Paul (Dexman)

 

[franklin97355]

The telco regulations have been updated and two pair cable is no longer allowed for any communications cabling. Too many installers were putting in whole house systems with two pair for phones and there was no room for expansion after the home was completed.

 

[Dexman]

Hi Franklin!

I guess that might explain why Beldin & General stopped production. I can understand why going with only 2 pair cables is limiting, but when dealing with Partner sets that's all you need. Merlin Magix 4400 series of digital telephones need only 1 pair.

I guess it's either buy a box of 5E or tap into my 6E supply from here on out.

 

[skip555]

4 pair cat 3 is still available , but youll find the cost to be close to if not the same as cat5e

how much where you paying for the 2 pair ?

might have been the same as 4 due to the volume diffrence to the supplier.

evan though its a church things change and its still foolish in my opion to pull anything less than 2x the needed pair count.

whay is the choice only 2 pair cat 3 or cat 6e ?

(is there a 6e ? )

 

[Dexman]

I don't remember the exact "$" figure for what I paid for my current 1000' pull box of 2-pair CAT 3 plenum, (The box has been around for a while) but I think it was between $60.00 and $70.00. Plenum 5E was going for well over $100.00/ 1000' spool or pull box.

The 2 pair CAT 3 was chosen for a few reasons:


1)Partner ACS telephones only need 2 pairs.

2) I am trying to use existing holes that were drilled to accommodate the 25-pair cables used with the church's old Stromberg Carlson key system.

3) To keep things orderly and avoid confusion down the road, I chose to run separate cables for each device.


The old 25 pair cables supported the Stromberg's telephones, a piggybacked Merlin 410 with telephones and a feed for an answering machine.

The person who installed the old telephone systems passed away (he was an electrician by trade) and I stepped in to fill in the gap not knowing how he had wired things up.

The wiring was a mess with devices sharing cables, things cross-wired all over the place with wires wrapped around the pins of 66 blocks and no documentation whatsoever. I decided at that point to keep things as simple as possible so anyone (an installer or whoever) who is called to support everything if I move or die, can step right in and figure things out very quickly.

The cable I purchased for the computers (new install) was Systimax 2081 (6E plenum). I know it's way overkill, but since it was a new install I decided to go with 6E (and I'll get a nice and much needed tax deduction come April).

So, basically, the wire is on hand, but I'm running low on the CAT3. If CAT 3 is no longer acceptable and I have to go with something else, I'll use the Systimax.

 

[ISDNman]

There are only 2 voice lines and 1 fax line and we don't anticipate any additional lines for the foreseeable future."

I guess it all depends on what you mean by forseeable future. IMHO one should be looking at least *20* years out, particularly if you are like me and go to great pains to conceal the wiring.

My house, built in ~1920, only has about two electrical outlets per room. And since the majority of them are "knob and tube" they have no grounds.

At tha time it was built I guess all anyone would have in most rooms would be a lamp. Rich folks might have had a fan or had more than 1 or 2 electric clocks for the entire house. And I guess for 20 years they were probably right. Not any more though. The local AHJ made them upgrade the panel and the Kitchens and baths, during a renocation, but I need to selectively upgrade the rest (I sure would like to have the computers and all the home entertainment gear on grounded surge protectors, and I have to get rid of the multiude of extension cords in the bedroom).

On the other and, the contractor that renovated the place about 6 years ago pulled RG-59 (why do so few people know about RG-6?) and a 4-pair cat 3 to every room. A few rooms have more than one jack. DId a good job with most of it well concealed. Sadly it is not ALL home run, but most of it is.

I am in the process of putting in a Smartalk KSU-less system. It is a three line system. Being a KSU-less system you have one pair per line. Plus the sets are powered from the jack on a pair that also serves for intercom and control.

So, I have to say I am very glad this contractor did not think like Dexman!

You do get a thumbs up for using the Cat 6e for the data though . This does prove you get the idea!

And in special cases like this where you have a legit needs for a small quantitity I am sure you'll find the 2 pair cat 3 somewhere, even if only at surplus places (still lots of quad around, unfortunately)!

cheers and good luck

 

[Dexman]

Hey ISDNMAN,

The building is cinderblock & concrete construction so cables are out in the open. I have the cables up near the ceiling and secured by "D" rings. I am following the same paths that the original 25 pair cables were run so people are used to seeing wire in those locations and don't give it any thought. Those rooms that the exposed cables run through is not used all that much, if at all.

The gentleman who was in charge of the building operations for many years until he death a few years back, knew every inch of the building like the back of his hand (he was an electrician). If there were a way to get wires up & down a wall to keep them out of sight, he would do it. Given the fact that the old telephone wires were run along walls up near the ceilings tells me that he determined that there was no reasonable way to get the cables behind the walls and run to their final destinations.

We recently had the controls for the heating system replaced and new thermostats installed and added as needed. In some places, the contractor also ran cables up near the ceiling and secured his new cables with clips. He did use wire channels where he could to hide the cables.

Running additional cables isn't really a problem as long as we try to use any existing holes before drilling new ones and follow existing cable routes wherever possible.

I pretty much donate my time working on the telephone system and wiring. It's not very extensive, so I can afford a Saturday here & there.

 

[srmega41]

Dexman,

Good for you on your work and efforts. I have done a lot of volunteer work for my church also, even re-cabling their entire office when they moved. I can totally understand the diffrence between cost and necessity, and I think there is a time and place to put in what is needed vs. the latest and greatest.

I would agree that sometimes a facility may only need a single pair for service, and that will suffice for 20 years, if needs do not expand beyond what they have today. Looking ahead is great, but when you are spending your own time and money, tomorrows technology may not be the best for anyone involved.

Star to you!!!!!

Scott M.

 

[skip555]

The building is cinderblock & concrete construction so cables are out in the open.

then why the extra $$$ for plenum ?

 

[Dexman]

I know that the install situation does not require plenum cables, but having cables that produce less smoke and gasses if it burns was something I wanted to use. Other than that, I would have probably gone with non-plenum cables.

 

[Dexman]

Thanks for the encouragement Scott! I enjoy the volunteering work.

 

[Robhub]

Dexman -
Genesis still manufactures a 2-pr Cat3 plenum cable. Their part number is 5041. I don't know where you are, so can't suggest a distributor, but you could call them @800/222-0060 for the info. Good luck.

 

[ISDNman]

Dexman,

Yes, d-rings are very nice and it sure makes it easy to add stuff later.

I helped a friend put in networking at his daughter's school. Cinder block, yuck.

I was the only guy that had a bit long enough to go all the way through a block. That bit disappeared on that job which was a bummer

Anyway, since you've proven your need.... I googled "CMR 2 pair" and found this:

http://www.fourpair.com/item--Cat-3-Cable-2-Pair-UTP-CMR-Solid-1000’-100132--100132

I am sure there are others. I bought a couple of hundred feet on a spool years ago (before I knew the error of my way haha) but I don't recall where.

Best of luck

 

[Dexman]

Thanks for the references ISDN & Rob!

My plan at this point is to get find out the exact amount of cable left in the box and fine tune the exact placement of the telephones to try to use up the box without coming up short.

I also wanted to thank everyone who posted on this thread. All the excellent advice will be a great help to me with future projects!

I did want to say that I am not against running cables that have more than the needed number of pairs. If I was going to install intermediate punchdown blocks, (like 110s), throughout the building, then I would definitely go that route.

Given the wiring mess that was left in the telephone closet, all the hidden splices and junctions that were used by the heating system before the rebuild, and the general layout of the building I felt that home-running all cables would be best. That way you know where the "A" and "Z" ends of all the cables are, no questions asked.

In my case, all but 2 telephones are located in the same wing as the telephone closet so intermediate blocks really are not needed even on different floors of the building.

Whew! when I initiated this thread, I never anticipated that it would generate the number of replies that it has. This goes to show that there are people out there who are more than willing to share their knowledge & experiences with others and that's why I enjoy being a part of this website!

 

[askthetech]

As I have Sprint Global Certification for CAT6 (meaning that I am certified for any phone company in any country in the world), you are best served by using either CAT5E or spending the extra money on CAT6. I was told (by Sprint) that the USA is being rewired for FTTX (Verizon and Sprint), and that it would be best to wire any office, or building, for technology 5-10 years into the future. This will save you $$$$$ as you will be prepared. If you were to be using VoIP Services right this moment, I could guarantee that you would be saving $$$$$. Connectivity is here today, even though some of my customers are still using Analog Phone Systems that I installed 10+ years ago, but now they have computers and have to have data cabling too. GO WITH THE GOOD STUFF NOW, or it will cost you in the future!

 

[askthetech]

2 pair CAT3 is being phased out because the phone companies are rewiring the USA for Triple Play, thus CAT3 becomes irrelevant. FCC gave the power companies and phone companies permission for IPTV (phone companies and power companies) and telephony (power companies). All homes in NY (N.E. USA are now being wired with CAT5E)

 

[Dexman]

Hi ask!

In the time between the last post and now, I've decided to run the CAT 6E cable I have on hand and remove the 2 pair CAT 3. It seems like overkill, but if that is the direction that things are moving towards, I figure that I might as well do it now and get it over with.

The 2 pair CAT 3 pieces are being saved because the cable gatherers found on the Avaya Partner ACS system modules are not big enough to hold a large number of 4-pair cables. I'll use the CAT 3 cable as jumpers from the Partner ACS to the jack panels in the phone room. The CAT 6E is being run from the phone closet out to the station jacks.

 

[mikeydidit]

I think you are making the best choice Dexman. If there is a way to "future proof" in our business you are going with the latest greatest and that should work great. I would add a second cable to all the places that you are going to pull into. At one time or another they may decide to go with a network within the church and you will be ready. Just label the jacks and patch panel accordingly and that will keep you from possibly having to pull in cables "again". One last thing. Be sure to terminate all 4 pairs of your cables on both ends and you will have a good trouble free installation that will easy to work on if you have to come back to it.



Mikey