Winning the floor

[stormbind]

There is a serious problem with a team in which the performance of every member is supposed to improve.

Boisterous teenagers with some understanding of a subject, are preventing others from having input, which is in turn undermining efforts to include everyone.

I have tried demonstrating to said teenagers the boundaries of their understanding, but doing so causes them to act silly and changes the subject to XBox 360 or other such nonsense.

Problems start when they are given the chance to have input - they simply do not relinquish that freedom and let the next person speak.

Any suggestions?


--Glen

Memoria mihi benigna erit qui eam perscribam

 

[SantaMufasa]

Glen,

I infer from your posting that you are involved, either officially or unofficially, in a "teaching" environment in this instance. Regardless, I also infer that one or more participants need some "learning". I'm certain that there are many teachers amongst our MAI numbers. (I taught daily from 1971 to 1997, myself.) We probably can offer several ideas for you, but we must first better understand the dynamics of the situation to which you refer. Please fill in some of the gaps that may help us help you to resolve some of the issues there. Here are some of the questions that come to my mind:

1) Who is responsible for managing/moderating/controling the situation of which you are part?
2) What authority/influence does the moderator hold regarding the participants?
3) What is the objective of the forum/group?
4) What do the participants hope to achieve by their participation?
5) To what do you attribute the apparent lack of manners and mutual respect amongst the participants.
6) What do the participants risk/stand to lose if the moderator disallows offenders from participating?

Perhaps your responses may generate more questions that we shall need to address before we start offering suggestions.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

http://www.dasages.com:

Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.

 

[stormbind]

Hi Dave,

Darn, you saw right through me! :-/

I have found myself in the position of unsanctioned tutor, which is something have been comfortable with.

1) Nobody
2) Humiliation?
3) Exam Revision
4) Improved grades
5) Unfulfilled desire for attention?
6) ...

It has been my strategy to encourage people to attempt answering problems, and I intervene only when they make an error.

This approach has worked well with individuals and small groups. The group has grown to seven or eight and the environment is no longer constructive for the reasons given in my opening post.

There is no desire for a lecture, but certain bombastic individuals are intent on giving one.


--Glen

Memoria mihi benigna erit qui eam perscribam

 

[SantaMufasa]

As the ad hoc/de facto moderator, you have the mantle of leadership. Even if you are a peer to the participants, each of the participants owes you and the other participants courtesy and respect. If they cannot offer that, then they are not welcome there...they are disrespecting everyone by wasting their time.

Anyone who believes that they are there to entertain the others can advertise that they are sponsoring a stand-up comedy routine that is open to the public and free; but they are not welcome to try to turn your revision group into their own stage...They must leave if they cannot abide by the rules of common decency.

If I were in your position, I would, at the next session, say, "Before we begin today's session, we must cover some important information. First, none of us is required to be here...we are all here donating our time to improve our knowledge on this topic and to improve our performance on the exam(s). We are not here to entertain others or for others to entertain us...There are other venues for that. We are here to get benefit for our time investment. Anyone who insists on interrupting, or trying to entertain, or trying to advance there own agenda that is not OUR agenda, is a thief that is robbing each of us. We cannot tolerate thieves among us.

Therefore, if you cannot abide the rules of common decency by participating to reach our shared objectives, you must leave.

If there is anyone who chooses to leave instead of abide our rules, now is the time to pick up your belongings and leave."

It is important, Stormbind, not to open this topic up for discussion...This is a non-negotiable aspect of a tutoring/revision group. Anyone who wishes to discuss the issue is a detractor and a distractor. They are welcome to leave and start their own revision group.

Let us know how things go.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

http://www.dasages.com:

Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.

 

[BoxHead]

Glen,

I'm not sure what sort of topics/problems you're discussing so my ideas could be way off target, but I do feel for you.

Could you split the group into smaller groups? Let the boisterous, obnoxious kids annoy each other for awhile and give the quieter kids a chance to speak among themselves?

Another thought, take a dozen blank pads of paper into the meeting and when one of these 'knowledgable' people begins stealing the floor, compliment him, "Hey, yeah, yeah, you got it." Toss him a pad of paper. "Write that down. Write that down right now and then I'll have someone else read it aloud to make sure we all understand it." And maybe, "While he's writing that, QuietKid, what do you think?"

If it becomes common that these soliloquies become writing tasks, they may become less enjoyable.


HTH

John




When Galileo theorized that Aristotle's view of the Universe contained errors, he was labeled a fool.
It wasn't until he proved it that he was called dangerous.

 

[KenCunningham]

boisterous, obnoxious kids

You mean there are other types?

Seriously, I like John's idea. Having to actually think and write down their musings will certainly concentrate a few minds. My guess, though, is that it would take a certain amount of determination on the part of the tutor to make it happen.

 

[PaulTEG]

I bow to Santa's knowledge on this topic, however, although it is theft, i'd focus more on the disrespect slant, "theives amongst us" IMO would likely rise a few hackles.

Be prepared to ask them to leave ... it can be tough.

You could suggest that they're welcome back to the next session, but that's a personal matter.

Just a few thoughts
--Paul



Spend an hour a week on CPAN, helps cure all known programming ailments ;-)

 

[carp]

I would submit that hackles NEED to be raised. And the hackles should be the members of the group that are intent on learning something. Peer pressure can be an enormous ally. And if the miscreants are made to feel unwelcome (or at the very least, uncomfortable), then they can either conform or depart.
If you don't get a saddle on these clowns (hmmm, might be a mixed metaphore in that one!), then the rest of the group is liable to quit coming because it's simply not worth their time. All you will have left are the "boisterous, obnoxious" kids.

 

[CRilliterate]

Ken,
Quote (John):
boisterous, obnoxious kids

You mean there are other types?


Yeah...infants

 

[LFI]

I like the idea of breaking it down into smaller groups. It's what (certain successful) companies do when they get too large. It's what stocks do when they get very high. It's what the cells in our body do when they get too big. In fact, our very existance depends on it!

Read about the magic of 150 and consider how you might apply it to your group.

Good luck! It sounds like you are trying to do a wonderful thing! I hope the kids wise up and take (positive) advantage.

Dave




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
O Time, Strength, Cash, and Patience!

 

[JediBMC]

These are all great ideas! I would like to add to them by proposing that you build the small group structure. Start off by setting a common code of conduct that everyone agrees on. Make it clear that if every agrees on them, then they must live by them while in the environment. Next, set up the groups to have a moderator of their own. Select a random member of the group to enforce the rules and enforce the consequences.

As for the consequences, work within the demographics of the group. Something that can be all together humiliating, and therefore quite effective, is to have rule breakers sing "I'm a little tea pot". A little embarrassment goes a LONG way in dealing with the pride of a teen.


-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

 

[LFI]

Start off by setting a common code of conduct that everyone agrees on.

And if you have them contribute to the CONTENT of the code of conduct, then they will be more likely to abide by it and you will always be able to say things like "I didn't make up these rules. You guys came up with them!"

Dave


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
O Time, Strength, Cash, and Patience!

 

[SamBones]

One way to give everyone the floor, is to literally give them the floor. If everyone is sitting when discussion is taking place, it’s easier for someone with a more dominant personality to overpower others. If you have each one stand in front to give his or her ideas, it makes it more obvious who has the floor, and more obvious that it’s an interruption when someone tries to dominate. It’s also easier to say that it’s the other standing person’s turn and to let them finish.

The down side is that many people have a fear of standing up and speaking in front of groups.

 

[JediBMC]

Piggy says: "Use the conch shell"

-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

 

[Turkbear]

Hi,
If they are too rowdy the conch shell could become a weapon..

Maybe weapons ( for teachers only) are the answer






To Paraphrase:"The Help you get is proportional to the Help you give.."