Will SS and SS+U bankrupt Avaya

[jimbojimbo]

Looking at the SS and SS+U offerings from Avaya it is such a dramatic shift in the maintenance pricing structure that I am wondering if anyone out there is actually going to purchase it or will it lead to another delay in customers upgrading there systems. Trust me, you didn't budget for it.

I have a few suggestion for everyone on Avaya today.

1. Get a quote immediately for an upgrade to CM4.0 with utility maintenance for 4 years (you should have at least 6 months left to purchase CM4.0).
2. Get a quote for an upgrade to CM5.0 with SS+U for 3 years (due to initial product house discounts the SS+U is actually cheaper then SS).
3. If you currently have DCS or Enterprise Edition you MUST upgrade to enterprise edition. If you do not, DONT UPGRADE TO ENTERPRISE EDITION IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN 500 PORTS. It will kill you on the maintenance. It ends up being cheaper in the long run to purchase standard edition and ala carte ESS/LSP licenses than to pay for the maintenance on Enterprise licensing (note: this may be something to discuss with your CFO since the license purchase and maintenance costs are treated differently). Standard Edition now includes QSIG and DCS so there really is no other compelling reason to switch unless you are a center stage ATM platform.
4. Based on 1 and 2 above act quickly to lock in. You will probably want to re-cast you maintenance for as long as possible.
5. WATCH FOR UPDATES ON THE PROGRAM FROM AVAYA.

 

[captainnick666]

it's not that they will go bankrupt, it appears that they are only intrested in the enterprise level clients.

 

[mikeydidit]

It is making it really hard to push Avaya as the best when they are heading in this direction. I have been working with another hospital and trying to get rid of a Meridian system. They have Avaya and Nortel coming in with their sales pitches. It's going to be hard for Avaya to swing their sale with the ridiculous support pricing.

I have a feeling this is only going to affect those of us who already have Avaya equipment, and it will effect future purchases. Don't think the bean counters won't weight their options...

On another note (You guys will find this funny) I got a call from Avaya the other day telling me to not be shocked when I receive my next maintenance bill. "You will see a large increase" this guy tells me. Some things under warranty are now not covered and will now be added (per the contract) to my full maintenance. I was also told that I signed a full maintenance agreement instead of the maintenance assist program??? They are only going up on my bill $15,000 a month.. NOT. This is on 3.0.1 load. Be careful guys scary things are coming from Avaya these days.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[captainnick666]

thier new rates are crazy. it's either you spend a million dollars or you have no support.

if any of you do not want to go to Avaya for maint, get in touch with me, maybe we can work something out.

 

[Nick44]

Or me.


Speak softly and carry a big switch

 

[heathersuzanne]

Hi,

Very scary indeed - I have been looking into the FCE model for a while now and the new costs for the 5.0 version is making me think twice about it. I had a related question - do you find that the changeds int he maintenance costs and Avaya cost strategies push you to Flatten Consolidate and Extend, or do you find its cheaper in the long run to support in standalone (SILO) topology? I'm looking for any opinions regarding maintenance costs assiciated with each. Thanks!!

 

[jimbojimbo]

Definitely goes against the FCE concept. In fact the larger the systems get hit the hardest.

If you do look to do some FCE and you have a combination of Enterprise level (ie DCS/QSIG or already EE) and standard level platforms you may want to look at combining into 2 separate systems. DO NOT UPGRADE TO CMEE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY since there is no longer any value in CMEE (DCS and QSIG are now part of standard edition). If you upgrade the licenses to CMEE you will drive up your maintenance costs proportionately.

You maintenance will also come into play here. You can ride out your existing maintenance before being forced onto SS/SS+U. This will hopefully allow Avaya to change the pricing structure to something more realistic. As I stated previously you may want to look at an immediate recast of all your maintenance for as long a period as possible. If you are on utility maintenance you can upgrade to CM5.0 without having to take on the extra cost of SS/SS+U. Find a Business Partner who will look out for your interests over making a quick buck.

 

[phoneguy55]

I for one will not upgrade to CM5.0. I don't like being forced to buy something that I am not going to use. I call for support once a year at best.

 

[mikeydidit]

I had a meeting yesterday that our network group put on. It was Cisco coming in with pretty much a hand held phone that works across our wireless access points. Pretty cool I admit. The first things I asked (being a tech and not being a bean counter)was how does it connect to my servers and how much was the RTU.

They squirmed (like the Avaya guys did when I asked them the same questions) and they finally told me the same thing Avaya did. Around $100.00 per phone. When they took a hard left turn in this meeting and started throwing out all the Cisco IP phones and gear, I politely left. It's not going to happen here.

Point being it is going to happen and not just the Avaya is going to be the bad guy. All we an do is put it off as long as we can (as some of the others mentioned above) and then deal with it when it happens.

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[heathersuzanne]

Hi,

This is a really great topic, in my view. I'm really surprised Avaya did this with their pricing structure...they kept touting the FCE method as the best thing since sliced white bread, and now its like you get penalized for it.

I went and got a 3 year annual prepay maint agreement on all my Definities. We're still going to have to upgrade, but all of my arguments for FCE are now going to be negated byt the cost of doing it... Strange move from Avaya.

Does anyone know if Avaya has recognized that their customer base is generally not too thrilled with this and whether they plan to re-think this new model?

Heather

 

[captainnick666]

Yes it has been brought to thier attention, but they stress that all they are doing is getting more in line with what other companies are doing in the industry, they do admit that they are moving away from the hardware & will be a software company going foward, which as we know, you only rent the software, you never buy it.

 

[heathersuzanne]

its just such a shame...they finally come out with what looks like a great FCE methodology which looks great technically, and then the pricing makes it so hard to implement once the numbers are considered. While Avaya tells me FCE is the way to go, I'm starting to think more about keping everything standalone and using microsoft to help make application deployment more seamless...

Wouldn't that be interesting...if Avaya Silo/Microsoft ends up cheper than and Avaya FCE deployment

Seems very confuusing to me.

 

[mikeydidit]

heathersuzanne The days of actual customer service have come and gone. I have been fortunate and have been in the industry long enough to have seen the good Ole days when customer service meant something. I am not naive enough to think that software development is free. But I am also not naive enough to think it's going to cost them the crazy amount they are looking at on maintenance the regroup their money.

When customer service was really in place they spent millions of dollars on software development to add new and better features. Why?? To make their product more competitive plain and simple. If you needed to upgraded to get those features, OK, here's the price do you want it?? It wasn't forced upon you, you had a choice to make.

If they are not very careful with this new price structure on maintenance, Cisco will be loving it all the way to the bank.

Thats my opinion anyways. Or does this say it all?????

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison

For the best response to a question, read faq690-6594

 

[heathersuzanne]

mikeydidit ,

I couldnt agree more. I thought maintenance was pricey before...especially since I rarely call them. Its just $$$ in the bank for them when none of us dont take advantage.

My Cisco tech was just telling me that for them maintenance is completely optional, and even without maintenance the equipment is warranty'd for life. With maintenance they get free software upgrades. From what I see on Avaya's new pricing structure, its not truly the free upgrade plan they make it sound like it is. Sure you get the software, but labor and hardware you pay for.

The thing that gets me is also that if I run out and buy r 4 today, for all my sites, I'll still eventually be forced to upgrade... and with the ever changing structure who knows what I'll end up paying. Inflation I'd expect, price increase, fine...but this is too much of a swing for me to swallow without wondering ir r6,7,8 will be even worse...

 

[captainnick666]

Pretty much, the self maintaniers such as us, will just let the CM's die off, & use a different platform to deliver service. thats what i plan on doing, get all my CM's up to 4.0.1, then just let them die, if i get a new client, or an existing client that wants more features, i'll move them to a soft switch.

 

[heathersuzanne]

Hi captainnick666,

I hate to ask this, but what do you mean by a soft switch?

Thanks!

 

[captainnick666]

like asterisk, broadsoft, M5

 

[Telerious]

What about the biz partners? Do they have something better to offer in terms of maintenance?

 

[captainnick666]

maybe, but not much better, my pricing was via a BP, they gotta make money too.

 

[heathersuzanne]

You know what throws an interesting kink in this whole thing? Unified Communications... at least in my case. For the businesses demanding these applications now, the driver to upgrade now is unavoidable and makes it hard to wait out the storm to see what Avaya pulls next. It also forces us to determine whther we want to FCE or stay SILO now, since that decision will impact how one deploys these UCC applications. Its like you are going to lose no matter what you choose. There's no clear path from Avaya that makes any of this an easy sell to the business...