Why have a PBX when you can have Cisco Call Manager?

[coolk]

Thats the question our team will have to answer.

We currently have 2 sites and are expanding to 4 sites. We are upgrading our 2 sites to S8710 and the new sites will have G700 gateways but now there is talk of replacing the switches with call manager. These sites are all call centre based with some back office. Can call manager do everything the definity can do and can it do it as reliably?

Thanks in advance.

 

[MenaceEnnis]

Hi ,
your question is one that will remain unanswered i guess , you will always have a group that will claim AVAYA is the bees knees and a group that will claim Cisco is the Bees knees.
In the Callcenter arena (ACD) Avaya would have the upperhand( more experience compared to Cisco )On normal PBX stuff, they are both on par with minor flavour differences

key Differences are
Avaya
- linux platform
- Propriaty hardware platform

Cisco
- Win2k platform
- Intel based Servers

Remember though cheaper is not always better,the biggest problem is to make a business case that includes everything. ACD (Callcenter requirements are completly different than bog standard PBX requirements)

Check out

http://www.touchbaseglobal.com

cheers .

 

[TykeUK]

I'm not an expert on the latest release's of Cisco Call Manager but we used previous versions in our remote offices. As I am from a definity background I found Call Manager awful to use. The functionality for a call centre just wasn't up to scratch and the administration was messy.

We migrated all our remote sites to G700 MG's and have never looked back.

Call Manager would be ok in my opinion for a small office with back office users but isn't a patch on Communications Manager. It would be a mystery to me why anyone would contemplate Cisco over Avay for Voice.

 

[mwarren]

We have AVAYA and have recently merged with another company who use CISCO.

I agree for basic pbx functionaly both would be ok. When these systems are sold at a high level - Yes they do the same thing and tick all the right boxes. When you investigate at an operational level, they don't have all the same features.

For call centre functions (Reporting, Routing, Skill handling, Whispers plus others) AVAYA outwights CISCO to the point that if we had to use CISCO like our parent company - we would loose alot of functionality we are used to and it would certainly be a backward step.

It ultimately depends on your business needs and how many of the AVAYA features you are using.

 

[jaymzter]

MenaceEnnis, S8700 series servers are not proprietary hardware, they are Intel based servers.

In addition, and please correct if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Cisco has a current migration strategy for phone systems. It's a rip and replace proposition.



Click below for S8700 Media Server information

http://www.jaymzworld.com/pages/linux

 

[nohuhu]

jaymzter,

...and s8710 are exactly hp dl380 ones.

 

[johnnydialtone]

A group of 3 of us manage 10 Definity / Communication Manager and 15 smaller system across the U.S.

After spending a bunch on data hardware Cisco gave us a CM 3.3 and Unity to pilot. Cisco built in a bunch of time from their IPT business partner staff personnel and we had weekly presentations / meetings to teach us about their product and go over issues.

I am biased as I have spent quite a bit of time working with Avaya products but I prefer Avaya from a functionality and administration standpoint. There were simple things, like coverage paths with multiple points that I couldn't do without another "module". In another large multi-location call center project the last 2 vendors we looked at were the Cisco (Geotel) ICM and some products from Avaya (OA, IC, PDS...) Avaya won that bid. I think they are still stronger in the call center market. Much of the ICM reporting would have been custom work.

The administration of the CCM was different and harder to comprehend than any other voice system I have administered. The maintenance interface was built for data gurus. We found several bugs that were easily fixed but I am used to knowing how to fix most problems with the Avaya systems and some of the Cisco stuff was unexplainable and required constant patching. I wouldn't feel comfortable supporting that product.

There are some aspect of the Call Manager I really like (clustered servers, works well with other Cisco gear)and think it could be the best product in some scenarios but it wasn't best for our situation.

Sales wise I think Cisco does a much better job marketing than Avaya or any of the Avaya BPs I have worked with.

 

[HmmG3]

Our company is currently doing a Proof of Concept on CCM. Since I now support both, there are some things that have shown up in regards to CCM. The first being that they clearly haven't been in the telecom business for very long. The IP technology behind it is great, but it's just not a fully featured phone system like Avaya's.

Also, I now have a great appreciation for the duplicate command in Avaya. You would not believe what you must go through to setup a new phone in CCM. Yes they have a copy command and a way to batch import stations, but it's still very clunky.

With Communication Manager 3.0 coming out soon, Avaya is clearly catching up with Cisco when it comes to redundant backup servers and IP telephony. So I'm really hoping our company drops the Cisco idea and stays with Avaya!

 

[HmmG3]

Oh, I forgot to mention the following features that are not available in CCM as of version 4.1:
EC500 (bridge to cellular)
Remote coverage (might be available, but I haven't figured out how to do it)
Directed call pickup (only group pickup)
Coverage Answer Groups (you must bridge extensions to have a call go to multiple phones)
Trunk to trunk transfer block (I was told in training to monitor CDR to stop existing abuse, but no way to prevent it)

There’s more, but these are the items that are used the most in our environment.

 

[RTMCKEE]

1st - Cost. Whatever Cisco said its going to cost, don't believe them. Use thier own references, and out how much (not if) is over budget.

2nd - ACD funtionality. The old geotel still kicks pretty good butt, however the admin on this thing is nightmare.

3rd - REPORTING!. If your organization does anything at all with the existing AVAYA reports, you are going to be SORRY you switched to Cisco. Even when we checked the references of CISCO at thier "top customer" in my area, they gave up on the reporting and went back to the avaya for reports.

4th - Features. A bunch of stuff that seems unimportant until you take it away. Find all the missing features from the CCM and disable them on the AVAYA to see if the users can live without them.

5th - Did I mention cost or reporting?

6th - Windows based servers. I have two S8700 running red hat for the phone system and two servers running on Windows for Modular Messaging (not even using the message store on these boxes) and I have to reboot The VM servers at least once a month. What is your call volume? How long does it take a windows CCM to reboot (I know the answer to this by the way) The CCM "stack" or the enire cisco voice "system" needs to be rebooted in a specific order. If one goes off line particularly the ICM (ask Cisco what happens to calls when the Voice browser stops working). ALL the servers have to be rebooted, IN ORDER! (its like 30 min of down time). The failover NEVER WORKED on the CCM system I worked on. It was always this reson, or that reason, but bottom line it didnt work.

RTMCKEE



CM 2.1.1
Prologix R9.05
Modular Messaging 1.1

 

[janaya]

All I can say is, cisco is into the network side pretty heavy, and I always used to tell my network guys.

"If my pbx went down as much as your network, I would be out of a job. Why aren't y'all"

And that sums up my option of the Cisco Telephony world.

Pbx's cost a little more, but the only business case you need to define is,

You have run your business without your network functions, but can you afford to do so without your phones?

John

 

[gphone]

Well, we are very familiar with both products plus many more. Cisco is lacking flexibility when it comes to basic business applications or it will cost you a bunch of money to do it with other equipment and companies they have purchased. Some of it is tuff to put your finger on it until you have something you want to do and it can't do it. Geez, they just got hunt groups with 4.0 and thier on 4.1.
Here's a few that bother me:
If you use some analog trunks with caller id they can't be programmed in the GUI with Call manager, you point to a router gateway and program all digit strings in the router which is very limited. If you don't have caller id it works fine in call manager using MGCP.
If you program any type of ARS (outdialing parameters) the whole system has to be reset before it can take effect. Make any change on a phone and it gets reset. They've been reliable for the past year but managing them and solving business applications is a pain in the butt. Unity is no different. Its like it was half done then a few third party companies have written some applications for it so you can make it do what you want but of course thier not in the administration portion. There are 25 other programs you have to go to make it do what you want.
There are many good products on the market, most come from a legacy background though. Avaya, Mitel, Intertel, are a few that we have seen work extremely well. Everyone has IP, its the managment and flexibility that makes a difference.

 

[coolk]

Thanks for the replies.

Would you see any problems with a large conatct centre (this site would be the largest within the network) being a satellite site within a CCM, ie, not having full control/responsibility.

Also, do you know of any specific features that are "missing" from CCM when compared to Avaya? For example, max hunt groups, vectors, agents, etc.

Thanks again.

 

[Polarneo]

Our company had just chose to deploy Avaya over Cisco. The main reason is as follow:
- lack of support for digital phone
- the cost for deploying analog for (Cisco need another router to do this)
- Cisco is Windows base and patches as well
- Call center
- Media encryption (only the some model of the IP phone support that)
We have study Cisco as well and the main advantage is Applications on the IP phones
I hope Avaya come up with something for us to do some customization on their IP phones

 

[gphone]

CCM does not have vectors. They will need to add another product to perform the call center functionality you get from Avaya or most high end products for that matter. Management of a total solution is all over the map. It's not a one system solution. You'll be programming several different boxes. Almost everything you program will require a reset something including external gateways. Add a T1 and everything has to be reset for it to take effect.
The windows patches of course require reseting the system several times. There is talk that they will be moving away from Windows, where will that leave your investment?
It is very difficult to put your finger on everything it doesn't do as its specific applications where it can't deliver.

While evaluating, have them setup a demo exactly how it would operate in your office. Get a list of everything they have included to make the demo work. Make changes to it as if its a real environment. Make note of the items your organization will use and see if it can handle it. Add trunks, phones and delete them; did things reset? How will that effect your business? Can you live with the way it operates as the choices of solving applications are very limited?

Everyone does VoIP very well. Set that aside. Evaluate manageability, flexibility, functionality, and investment.

 

[nohuhu]

coolk,

it's time for me to put my two cents here. so, i don't understand the question you stated in the thread's name. what is pbx? what is cisco call manager? do you think the pbx is that really big gray box that hums and plays color music with its leds? really there is no difference between avaya communication manager and cisco call manager on this part. both are software applications running on some platform. in avaya's case it is far better platform, more manageable and stable. and more secure as well. you cannot, by design you can't, just no way to isolate cisco's processing unit (windows server running ccm) from the rest of the corporate network, because cisco ip phones have to have direct access to it just to work. with avaya, you can build completely private and secure segment of lan between media servers and ipsis. if you don't have physical access to the network, you can't hack it, you can't poison it with some nasty virus, you can do nothing with it. cisco will never have this grade of security, never. and this gives avaya a huge advantage because customers can sleep sound and know for sure that their corporate telephony network, the heart of every business, is stable and secure.
another myth about cisco is that ccm is 'pure ip' environment and you just need to buy ccm itself and a bunch of ip phones to make it work. hah. you can't. you will always, i said _always_ need some additional hardware to perform some telephony-specific things. for example, you need some piece of hardware to do voice recoding between different codecs. and you need to interface with t1s or e1s, because your provider can't give you public network access over ip, or he can but with non-acceptable quality or he can give you only a bunch of co's because his co switch is hundred years old. and what about faxes? and modems? hah! it's easier to make an elephant dance polka than to teach a receptionist to use some pc-based fax application instead of feeding sheet after a sheet of paper into the fax machine! and this brings us to another popular myth:
using cisco router as a voice gateway is good. no, it is not. it is a known fact that using specialized hardware is always better and often more cheap because of its specialization. cisco routers are not specialized for telephony (and voice at all) processing, never mind what cisco sales guys said. you want examples? not a problem: did you ever try to debug some isdn link problem on cisco's side? i did. it gives me nervous tick just to remember those logs that you should turn on and off every time, not forget to clean them between tries just to see the exact call trace you want to see and not every sneeze in the router. did you ever try to decode those encrypted trace logs without any documentation available at hand? i once had a comical experience, i needed to debug an e1 link between some nec pbx and provider's definity. i didn't have any nec documentation at hand and all that i could do is just call the provider technical guy on the other side of the e1 and ask him what tests do fail on this board. do you think i solved the problem? yes, in ten minutes. because you can do wonders if you have definity and a full set of documentation for it.
another myth: cisco routers can do everything you need. no they can't. cisco router can do only basic, mostly us-centered tasks. if you need to interface it with ni2 or euro isdn, it's fine in almost every case. e&m? huh! you'll find that not only different cisco documents state completely different things about setting up e&m on the router, but all those documents are completely wrong! you'll have to do it the oldest way: trial and error. more of that, do you think cisco router can do every signaling found in the world? not at all! try to explain cisco guys that there is some strange hybrid between r1 and r2 cas signaling systems (we call it r1.5 shuttle) that is by some misconvenience adopted as a standard way to interface public telephony networks in russia and some other ex-warsaw block countries. and you just have to use it because there is no way to get isdn or it would cost as an aeroplane. did cisco ever hear about it? no.
yet another myth: stability. never mind the ccm itself, let's talk about routers. did you ever hear avaya technicians talking about what firmware build to use and what not to use because of its bugs? that's what i hear every day when our cisco guys are consulting customers. 'do you need this feature? oh, then you should use ios such-and-such suffix x build y, because others have it broken. ah, you need yet another feature? then you should use completely different build of the older version because all newer than x/y have feature 2 fixed but this feature 1 was broken again!' i'm laughing on them.
still another myth: cisco ipcc is good. it's a nightmare. if you want ipcc, you should pay cisco $5m for it, pay some vendor $3m to set it up, hire three or five ccies for $1m/year each to sit around it and not breathe and then you should never, never ever place it under significant load! better if you don't turn it on.

finally, i disagree with gphone. not everyone does voip very well. avaya does. others are mostly saying that they can.

 

[st1tch]

...and s8710 are exactly hp dl380 ones.

how about s8700 servers?

 

[nohuhu]

st1tch,

s8700 are unknown no-name (for me, at least) brand. that's why i recommend my customers to upgrade to s8710.

 

[GroundRatt]

O.K. Guys, We have a Cisco Salesman comming here Tommorow and I want to hit him hard with questions. When avaya came in our I.T. Dept just laughed and scoffed at every word. I need questions that i can ask to get them to reveal what they lack that avaya offers. I have some from this thread but i want to rip this guy to shreads. I tried a search for a comparison but couldnt find anything. we are going to implement a call center this year. is there some place i can see what features CCM doesnt have that avaya does? Thanks for any and all replies.

Steve
Senior Telecom Systems Specialist
University of Texas Health Center at Tyler
"DON'T BE LEFT BEHIND"

 

[RTMCKEE]

Don't focus so much on the features, they will tell you they have them all. Focus more on the reliability.

Windows servers.

What happens to calls when(not if) you loose an G.323. gateway or an MGCP gateway.

Is it compatiable with a third party IVR? TDM? watch them squirm on that one. When they say yes...and they will, Ask them how much the ISN cost (its a whole nother beast to get this to work)

Ask them about Call center reports How may vurses avaya? Do they have a tool to write reports like report desigener? We paid $350 an hour to have this done, because they dont have the tool.

How often do you upgrade router code now? What happens to gateways, and CCM when you change router code? (you have to upgrade it)

A good question was: "you claim to have over 8 million pages of support on your website. I'sn't that alot? I'snt most of that bug fixes? Dont you guys test this stuff before production release?"

How often does your network go down now? Do your phones go down that much now? Do you want them to? Do you always know what causes a router reboot?

How much extra does it cost to have an analog line off the CCM? (50 -100 bucks each) and not very stable.

They will tell you the audio quality is as good as TDM.. And it is for the most part on 711... ask them about audio issues for 729 over the wan. (very unstable on cisco)

ask them how many times your various windows servers have gone down for various issues.... sp2, bug fixes that broke something, viruses, memory leaks. Then contrast that as to how many times those issues happened on your TDM system.

dont forget to do a calcuation for call center outtage based on the PHONE SYSTEM BEING DOWN! I will bet you $100 bucks that in the last year your network/servers the call center agents use has gone, down but were still able to take phone calls...... NOT ON THE CISCO.... dont forget to factor in back up locaitons, costs for network redirects and such.

They will say the system is 99.999% reliablity. NOT FOR THE QUOTED PRICE! they will low ball it to make it look good against the avaya, but ask them how much more it will cost to get it to 5 9s.

most likely because your a phone guy your not going to be able to bust their balls on the network side... but keep harping on reliablity and cost.

Ask for references, and ask what the orgingal quote for the install was and what it actually came in at... and check. make sure its the same size install as yours.

dont get sold on this. you will be out the door. My last company the SERVER GUYS ended up running the phone system. NOT the phone guy (me who quit) or the network guys who wanted this.

Good Luck, and Godspeed.

RTMCKEE



CM 2.1.1
Prologix R9.05
Modular Messaging 1.1