Where do I go for serious grammar discussion? 1

[ESquared]

There are several grammar questions I've had for some time now, and I'm not quite sure where to go to ask about and explore them. Does anyone have any suggestions? This forum is described as "light-hearted," whereas I am looking for serious discussion (and hoping to find real language professionals).

What do you say?

For example,
- I would like to learn how to properly use "whom."
- I have some questions about correct grammar when making comparisons, as in, "Joe runs faster than Maria."
- Are italics or quotes the preferred usage for referencing rather than instancing? I could have said whom instead of "whom."

There are others that are not coming to mind at the moment.

E²

 

[sleipnir214]

<facetious>
We can be serious. For short periods of time.
</facetious>


"Whom" [or should I say whom?] is used as a direct object ("Whom did you call?"), indirect object (sorry, can't think of a good example) or subject of a preposition ("To whom did you give the ball?").

The demonic mnemonic I use is that anywhere I would use "him", I should use "whom".



Probably italics are more correct than quotation marks. The problem, though, is that quotation marks are often easier to use than italics. My general advice is that you be consistent.


What was your question about comparisons?



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[CajunCenturion]

Hopefully, this forum is an ideal place to have such a discussion, in fact, that is the stated purpose of the forum.

Basically, you use "who" when a noun is called for and "whom" when a verb object, or a prepositional object is called for.

I see no problem with "Joe runs faster than Marcia."

With respect to referencing/instancing, that's a good question, and I'm not really sure.

My suggestion would be to start a thread for each question that you have, and with luck, we'll all hash it out.

Good Luck
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[sleipnir214]

With thanks to CajunCenturion:

In my last post, change "subject of a preposition" to "object of a preposition".



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[ESquared]

I've tried to apply the him/whom device myself, but,
to him did you give the ball?
doesn't work exceedingly well, except for an alternate form,
you gave the ball to him?


The question about comparisons... okay. Look at all these sentences.

- Joe runs faster than me.
- Joe runs faster than I [do].
- Joe runs faster than I. ??

But back up.

- Joe runs faster than 10 mph. (10 mph = a speed)
- Joe runs faster than Maria. (Maria = a person)

Maria is not a speed!

- Joe runs faster than Maria [runs]. ([the speed at which] Maria runs is a speed)

What is correct in all these examples? Must I say the qualifying word which relates directly to the comparison, as in runs in the last example? Or is it acceptable to leave it out even in a professional perfection-is-the-goal setting?

It is escaping me now, but I recall seeing alternate and unintended meanings emerge in some commonly-accepted usages.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Pick one for this thread - who/whom or comparisons.

We won't do both in the same thread.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[ESquared]

Um, okay. Comparisons it is. Who/whom bothers me less.

 

[sleipnir214]

I think that your difficulty with comparisons is that is implied in some of your example comparison statements is different from what is explicitly stated. And when one interprets the statements literally, it seems as though the comparison is actually comparing dissimilar attributes.

But take, for example, the statement:

Joe runs faster than Maria.

What is being implied in the sentence is:

Joe can run faster than Maria can run.

The strict information in the statement, though, is:

The maximum speed at which Joe can run is greater than the maximum speed at which Maria can run.

If you are communicating verbally, the first formulation is sufficient. English allows verbal shortcuts (in this case, the listener is to assume that the verb runs is to be appended to the sentence). But it's important to insure that the use of the shortcut does not introduce ambiguity into the statement.

If I were writing the comparison in a more formal arena, I would probably use the second form, or the slightly shortened version of it: Joe can run faster than Maria. It is a safe assumption that the reader will know to append the previously-used verb phrase can run to the statement.



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[ESquared]

I understand that in most cases one can drop the repeated verb phrase, but everything is still not clear to me:

Joe is smarter than me.
Joe is smarter than I am smart.
Joe is smarter than I am.
Joe is smarter than I.

The first and the last cannot both be correct, can they?

 

[LesleyW]

Hm... try

Joe is smarter than Fred
Joe is smarter than him.

.. sound fine to me, which would implies that the first of your suggestions is correct, Joe is smarter than me.

Joe is smarter than Fred is smart - this sounds very awkward and I am not sure if it is correct.

Joe is smarter than he - again feels wrong ... not sure why

Interested to see what everyone else thinks...

 

[ESquared]

You can't mean Fred!!?!? Joe is smarter than he is.

 

[sleipnir214]

LesleyW:

This page takes the same tack as I have been with these elliptical phrases. To know which pronoun to use, you must interpret the sentence as if all the understood words were explicitly stated.

Thus Joe is smarter than he is correct because the more explicit stating of the sentence is Joe is smarter than he is.


That same page states that both of theses sentences are correct, but that they have different meanings:

He likes you more than I => He likes you more than I [do]

He likes you more than me => He likes you more than [he likes] me.



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[ESquared]

sleipnir214,

It is escaping me now, but I recall seeing alternate and unintended meanings emerge in some commonly-accepted usages.

The link you provided gave such an example, and also clears it all up for me! Have a star.

See? I wasn't just being pedantic, this was bothering me for a good reason...

 

[GwydionM]

Get Eats, Shoots and Leaves for a good guide to clear meanings. And without the Zombie grammer that insists on a rather formal and old-fashioned English, without regard for context.

English broken fluidly is still English and can sometimes get a meaning across more clearly.

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