When do you stop giving advice? 3

[bcastner]

I have had the experience several times where it seemed to me better to stop helping a forum member than continue.

I am curious if you have faced this issue, and how you dealt with it.

On point: I have someone who hijacked a perfectly good thread dealing with client communications in a network setting between XP clients and Windows 2k servers. I researched the issue, tested it, thought about it, and wrote a very widely (outside of TT) quoted piece, which I then with encouragement made into a FAQ.

Someone added a new response that bumped the thread again to the top. It usually for 6 months or so floats on page 1 or 2 of the XP Forum, and quite frankly has gotten unwieldy in size (hence, the FAQ). It became clear to me that the questions being asked were so niave and inexperienced that I felt irresponsible after a time trying to answer any further questions.

The questioner clearly was out of their league in the job position they had taken. Really, clueless. Now, I cannot serve through the Forums as a remote fixer of all the issues involved. Please see the end of this thread, the last 10 or so messages, and tell me a better way to handle this concern of mine that the more I am helping this user the more the network users at this site are essentially screwed: thread779-540080

 

[skiflyer]

Assuming the question at the top is actually looking for an answer... I'd simply say, whenever you like. IMO, you have no obligations (ethical or otherwise) on this forum short of offering honest & kind (i.e. never being malicious) help when you decide to offer help.

 

[butchrecon]

I think what you finally did at the end of the thread was the right thing to do. Sometimes the issues get lost if the thread is too long or in the wrong place. With the thread in the Win2K server forum it could get benefit from more individuals who only sit in a couple of threads who may have the answer.

I feel it is ok to help someone as much as possible, however when the hand holding becomes permanent then it becomes an issue and a distraction. These forums are here to help, however we cannot help those who cannot help themselves, or those who are so dead set they are right that the advise you give they snub at. I see it all the time in this forum. But like you I continue to help because. With me it is because once the answer is found, that is something I can add to my skills base.

James Collins
Help Desk Analyst
A+, MCP, MCSA, Network+

 

[Provogeek]

Depends on your willingness and ability to ignor the idiots.

In the Novell forums I participate in, this type of thing has happened many times. It can be frustraiting, but you need to remember, your a pro, they are not. Your post is very well thought out, you explain your self very well. You last post should not have been done, you should have just ignored the poster and RF'd him telling D&D it's off topic. I just stop helpping them. I answer the question in the original post, follow up as needed with the one asking the question, then leave it at that. If someone else submits a new post to a thread I consider to be closed, I ignor it. If someone chooses to answer them, more power to them. I'm here to help, not hold hands.

It would be nice if there was a system to close a thread so no further posting is possible. Should start a new thread is anyone wants to talk about this.

 

[edemiere]

bcastner

Heh, great thread.

This brings me back to a point I made (or tried to make a long time ago) which at the time didn't seem to be welcomed by most TT people.

The point that I was trying to get across was:

"Does the person needing help want a fish or want to learn how to be a fisherman?"

In most cases I'd prefer to give smaller bits of information and maybe make a reference that they go read something else or do a search on google, or whatever.

I'd much prefer to teach someone how to be a fisherman than to sit and spoon feed people in forums. Because the trouble is, once you start spoon feeding someone (or maybe more than one person) it becomes almost impossible for you to put the spoon back down.

Instead, I would prefer to try and get them to think a bit on their own and hopefully once they find the answer through some of their own personal effort that they can reach the conclusion of: "wow, that wasn't so hard to find, I could have done that myself" so that next time, they might be a bit more resourceful on their own.

Anyway, that being said, it didn't seem to be well received by others and in most cases it seems to be a 'star competition" where even if the solution as been given, more and more people tend to post more and more detailed information as if trying to farm out a star. Granted, it's kind of nice to get a star on something you post in that someone found it so useful as it to honor you for your assistance, but where does it end?

So, all that aside, I guess in the end I got more into spoon feeding since trying to make people do some thinking didn't seem to be very well received.

bcastner, you are a good egg, and you have a wealth of knowledge from what I have seen and read and I for one am appreciative to have you and people like you participating in these forums. Keep up the good work and don't let it get ya down.

Regards,

Eric

 

[edfair]

The unwieldy ones are problems.
I generally tell people to start a new thread. Research the old stuff, but put your problem in a new thread because most people ignore the long ones. And to tell the steps they have taken and the threads they have followed to the point they are at.
I have no problems ignoring people who are clueless. And no problem with people who follow behind me spelling out in detail my sometimes rather terse replies. If I can give a fix in 2 words, I'll use 2 words.


Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[chiph]

I've seen this discussed a few times. It usually comes down to how you define a "computer professional" (see Tek-Tips logo at top-left).

The other day I RF'd a post in the C# forum where someone was asking "What is a class, and what are functions used for?". Obviously not a professional, and D&D agreed because the thread is gone.

It is a judgement call. If the person is just a novice to the topic under discussion, sure, answer the question -- We were all beginners at one time. But if they are truly clueless, then RF it and let the site management decide.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[Kjonnnn]

So basically what you guys are saying is perceived dumb questions will be deleted. Thats dumb to me.

If you don't know, you don't know. Where best to ask than in a forum were people WHO DO KNOW know the answer.

I think its condescending to say "that question is to easy" and should not be here.

Maybe the owners should have some qualifiers to determine if your worthy and knowledgeable enough to ASK A QUESTION.
Insane.

 

[Provogeek]

Kjonnnn

In chiph's post the message I got was a person was too lazy to open up a book on C# programming language, go to the index and look up class and function. This in it's self is not a stupid question, it's a student question, something that is not allowed in these forums.

This isn't an issue about NOT answering someone’s question; it's an issue about holding ones hand when they are clearly incompetent and too lazy to do their own research. I would have to say about 50% of the replies I post to peoples questions point them to the product documentation or a technical document on a support site. Some people don't know were to find the answer, so I point them to it. If it's something that is in normal training classes, then it is actually a disservice to the questioner to give them the flat out answer.

If some one asks how to install NetWare, I will point them to the product documentation on the web that will give them the steps. If they are too lazy to read it, then they don't belong here. If they don't understand something, then ask, but if you come back and ask me how to create a DOS partition, time to RTFM pal. If you come back and say you have a 610 error in DSTRACE after install, then we have something to work with and I am ready to help.

 

[edfair]

No, perceived dumb questions aren't deleted. They are just not answered by some of us because it is the third or fourth time in the same thread, or because the same question shows on the forum two lines above.
Why should we waste our time giving help to somebody who is too lazy to create a new thread or to look at previous threads or look at the FAQs.
There are other people on the site who take pleasure in answering every question, no matter how many times it has been asked. They can cover it.

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[onpnt]

Kjonnnn
There are NO "perceived dumb questions"

There are unprofessional questions and those would more then likely be a result of the Red Flag tool usage.

Anyone can ask "how to turn a computer on?" in a professional way in the forum and there will be no reasoning for it to be taken down.

_____________________________________________________________________
_{You can accomplish anything in life, provided that you do not mind who gets credit.
<quote>Harry S. Truman</quote>}

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[manarth]

KJonnnn, Tek-Tips Forums are &quot;Technical Work Forums for Computer Professionals&quot;

Tek-Tips isn't here to help users find the 'any' key.
Besides, the appropriateness of posts is not decided by the members. All we can do is draw Tecumseh's attention to a post - it's up to them to decide if any action should be taken.

You ask &quot;Where best to ask than in a forum were people WHO DO KNOW know the answer&quot;
In many instances, the place to start is with the manual. Or the &quot;C# programming for dummies&quot; book. Or - heaven forbid - google. Or even the FAQ section. That isn't to say that Tek-Tips has to be a last resort, but in the wave of MS_Blast infections, there were users on the Virus forum760 who didn't even bother reading the top few posts on the front page - all with obvious titles relating to MS_Blast. Obviously keen to get their name on the site.

Besides which, sometimes &quot;Ask Google&quot; is the best help you can give someone. Maybe they'll learn something, instead of just memorising something.

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[Kjonnnn]

Oh well... ill go back to my novice forum then ...



Sometimes its hard to look up the spelling of a word, when you don't know how its spelled.

 

[Lozbinator]

I think I can understand Kjonnnn's point.

Sometimes you write a question in a forum when you have looked up books and various online references, and Google just throws back &quot;spaghetti&quot;. You may read the &quot;answers&quot; in such sources, and yet still make little sense of them, or be able to relate them back to a real-world style example you can simplify to understand better.

I myself often find even though I have read various books / articles / manuals etc, that sometimes the most effective (and clear) answer can come from somebody else explaining it in their own words, from their own understanding... *shrug*.

That said, I also agree you need to make an effort, and there are NO dumb questions - only lazy questions and questions asked in an unprofessional manner.

I also think it is NOT unprofessional to be a novice. It is the APPROACH that matters. Although one should not have to justify / prove their previous attempts or approaches.

Maybe more than my 2c

 

[johnwm]

Quite often the most valuable help that we can give people is how to help themselves. It's very boring for me (and any other members who read my answer) if I just copy and paste a section from VBHelp. It's better to tell people to put the cursor over the command and press {F1}.

As far as pointing people to Google, that may be a valid answer as well. Most of the forums on this site aren't populated with code 'cut&paste' merchants. If the questionner is at the level that they need a cut&paste answer there are often more appropriate sites.

It's certainly reasonable IMO to expect people to do a search on the forum and look at the FAQ section before they ask a question. If they don't then the most helpful answer is to point them to the research tool, rather than do the research for them. In many of the busy forums I've seen variations of the FAQ I refer to in my sig (faq222-2244). Quite often the most helpful long-term advice you can give is a research tool rather than a spoon-fed chunk of code

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'People who live in windowed environments shouldn't cast pointers.'

 

[BruceReed]

john
Your long term advice will only work for people that are not lazy. For many people that ask questions at TT, they don't think that this applies to them.

I stop giving advice when I realize that the person does not want advice, they want the solution spoon fed to them, and they don't want to have to think too hard about their problem.

Bruce

 

[sleipnir214]

<sarcasm>
When do I stop giving advice? Whenever the whims of my capricious nature demand so. Why, I think I'll stop giving advice right




Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[SteveTheGeek]

sleipnir214 hits the nail on the head, as usual. As everyone has their own standards for what questions to answer (and how), the more closely a questioner adheres to everyone's standards, the more help they'll get (with RFing being somewhere near the outer edge of the standards). Generally this seems to take the form of &quot;if you can't be bothered to spend some time researching your question (or even noticing similar prior threads in this forum) then I can't be bothered to spend some time answering you.&quot; Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
-Steve

 

[cian]

I personally like to help until the problem is solved or until I have done all I can to explain the solution leaving the final step up to the user.
In the case where the user is way in over their head i'd be honest and say so, provide some good links where they can start learning and tell them to return to the topic after they have studied a bit.
Depends also if other people are answering, if so i'd be more likely to back-off earlier after making a few suggestions.
I reckon anyway..




- É -

http://www.ssi-developer.net/elgoog/

 

[Spirit]

&quot;Spoon feeding teaches nothing but the shape of a spoon&quot;

bcastner,

I have noticed your name pop up once maybe even twice in various forums (one of which was mine, ta again) and if this is a conscience issue I wouldn't worry.

But to answer your question, only answer the question that of the original poster (exception being Ethics co's these are more for fun than anything else aren't they?

If some needs help they will post in the appropriate forum - Hmmm won't be long until we see THAT one in Ethics too

Iain

P.S. My XP laptop to is very slow.........