What is 'fair pay' when the company is doing badly? 1

[Stevehewitt]

Hello!

I have a bit of a dilema, and as much as I have tried to mull it over myself - I cannot come up with a firm conculsion.

I have been doing P/T networking at a main company for the last 4 years. I learnt eveything networking wise with this company, and in return they have got (IMHO) an enterpise network for a v. small cost. As well as this (only P/T) I have been doing freelance consulting.

The company in question is asking me to work F/T as IT guy and some admin/sales when the ppl are off. (Small company). The problem is that this company is doing poorly. We are funded from a mother company, but we have never made money on our own (although looks like we may this year.).

Basically, I have been offered a salary which I do not think reflects the true experience, work, knowledge and responsiblity required for the job. I am not greedy, but I think I am worth more. The salary in question is less than a salesman's and the admin people.

On the face of it, you would think "ask for more" or "go elsewhere". - Well like I said, the company is doing badly, and they have treated me very well when I was P/T (Freedom in the job such as purchasing, flexitime etc.).

Any suggestions people?!

Thanks,

Steve Hewitt

 

[AnanthaP]

As you said, you owe them and they have been a good employer to you.

So, in my view, you have to act on the "IMHO" and other things like:

(1) Confirm that the company thinks they have got an enterprise network because of your efforts. You have course got your first results based on the salary offered to you.
(2) Find out their attitude towards F/T persons? Do they for instance make all statutory or customary payments without follow up or reminders?
(3) Will you get the same freedom as an F/T with probably more responsibility as you got as a P/T.

Also, in a depressed job market, you have to think twice before quitting. But what you can do is to benchmark your qualifications, work style etc against the industry standards.

End

 

[dwarfthrower]

I'm in a not-dissimilar position. I'm a senior consultant / development team leader for a small software development company. I came on board last year for the same salary as my previous position. The company is experiencing cashflow issues as we have devoted a large portion of our activities to developing a new product and are only just starting to get some potential buyers interested. As I came over for the same salary, it effectively means I haven't had so much as a cost-of-living increase in over two years.

Now, it's a great little company and I have no desire to jump ship over a few thousand dollars, however - we are, after all, in it for the money. I recently had my performance review and, while not explicitly asking for a payrise, outlined exactly why I thought one was warranted. This seemed to go over very well, my boss was appreciative that I had taken into account the company's position as well as my own. In addition, I mentioned that I would be interested in packaging my salary so as to include additional fringe benefits outside of salary so as to minimise the impact to the organisation.

 

[Stevehewitt]

Yeah, I understand what you are both saying. The company has been very good to me, and pay is what I would call reasonable when I was on P/T. I have also done a lot for the company as well- Developed the network, Created Access Apps, Support, Website, Mail Servers, Intranet, Remote Access. On a P/T basis that a lot - but I was in it for the learning, and I enjoyed it.

What they are offering is really taking the micky, as you all know, IT really is the company backbone which keeps info flowing - and I would be soley in charge. Should I wait and see how it goes or tell the managment?

Something I didn't mention - I have been P/T for about 3 years!!! Would you feel its fair to be earning less than a salesman / secetary who has been there 1 1/2 years whilst holding that kind of responsiblity?

AAGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!

(And point 3: I would have more responsiblity, no/v.little flexitime and all purchases now HAVE to be authorised first. Every floppy disks!!!!!)

Thanks for the advice so far,

Steve Hewitt

 

[CajunCenturion]

Don't know the situation, but there may be other aspects of the compensation package, besides salary, that apply to F/T that do not apply to P/T. Such as Medical/Dental benefits, 401k Participation, Cafeteria Plans, Paid vacation, and so forth. I don't know if any apply or not, but be sure to include them in your equations if they do apply.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Stevehewitt]

Hmm, thanks for the thoughs. Yeah, paid leave - but thats about it. Not that I really need those perks anyway!!!

Really, I wanted to turn this thread into a bit more of a generic thing - so maybe after reading people's views on IT pay against company situation I would get another view on my personal dilema.

I mean, would it be fair to ask for more pay (either starting in a new job, promotion or you just think your worth more), when the company is doing badly?

Any thoughs?!

Steve Hewitt

 

[KornGeek]

It's fair to ask, but it may not be wise. It would depend heavily on the individual you are asking and how they are likely to react. If I asked, I would do so carefully and with no real expectation of increased pay. I would advise against ultimatums, because they may not have the option of paying you more at this time. Also, I just think ultimatums are a bad idea in general.

 

[Stevehewitt]

OK, thanks. Still not sure what to do. They have been good to me, and I have been good to them - & money is not everything... but still!

Anyone else got any views? Is it 'ehtical' (wrong forum maybe?) for IT staff to ask for more money when they think they deserve it - even though the company is in bad times?

Steve Hewitt

 

[dwarfthrower]

There is nothing 'ethically wrong' with asking the going market price for a product or service. A company - any company - is buying your time and expertise from you, and they should do so at a rate that is fair and equitable (ie somewhere around the going market rate).

Just as a car dealer shouldn't feel compelled to knock a few thousand dollars of the purchase price of a new car just because the buyer isn't as wealthy as the next person, you shouldn't feel compelled to sell your services for less just because the company is doing badly.

When it all comes down to it, business is business. If you feel you are getting less than you deserve, outline clearly and concisely why you feel this way with your employer. It may well be that the company you are with has no real idea of what the going rates are. If the company then turns around and says "no" you can take their reasons into consideration before deciding on whether the extra money that you might get elsewhere is worth the hassle and risk of changing jobs.

This all depends on the company's true financial position. If it's simply a rough patch, why not put off your request for a month or two. But if the company is sinking fast, you're probably better off making a move regardless.

 

[jancebk]

This topic raises several questions...

Did you approach them about working full time for the company, or did they approach you?

What is the reason for the change in your status PT to FT?

If you are not the instigator of this potential switch, you are in the "control seat". There must be a reason, after 5 years that they feel the need to offer you the FT position. Try and figure out what that reason is...

My advice? Do not let feelings of obligation determine your current (and future) worth to the company. Yes, you have gained valuable knowledge while employed there part time. However, the company in turn received all the services you mentioned, at probably close to bargain rates. That would be an even trade and not obligate you to future discounts to them.

If you would like to work for the company Fulltime, research what the average FT salary for a person with your skills earns in your geographic location and propose that salary to them.

If you go full time at a "bargain" salary, it is much more difficult to get that salary increased to the average or above average levels. Companies will always have reasons for not catching you up to current market levels.

Hope this helps.
Jan

 

[Stevehewitt]

Good Post, thanks. I think that is worthy of a star.

Basically, I told them that I am going to look for a full time employment. You can offer me a job, get another employee to do it or get a service contract with a consultant.

They told me to come up with an offer - and I did what you suggested and researched the average pay. Offered it to them and basically said no. They had a figure in their heads anyway.

Is it right to ask for more?

Steve Hewitt

 

[needcoffee]

Counter-offer! I would lower your price by a small margin (less than 10%) and see what they come back to you with. If they refuse to raise their offer any, start looking for another fulltime position.

"Would you feel its fair to be earning less than a salesman / secetary who has been there 1 1/2 years..."

How does their offer compare to your current hourly wage? I would pass if it is less than what you are already making.

Ultimately their profit margin should not influence the cash value you place on your work.

Best of Luck!

Now where did my mug go...
needcoffee

 

[KornGeek]

After thinking about this I bit, I came to the conclusion that it might be fair to accept a smaller pay rate with an understanding that it is only for a limited period of time.

After all, if the company was doing incredibly well, wouldn't you expect some kind of pay bonus? It seems only fair that it would work both ways.

But that's just one opinion. You need to do what's ultimately right for you. Balance the money you need to earn with how much you enjoy this job, and decide if their offer is good enough.

 

[Stevehewitt]

Good post KornGeek. Yeah, from what has happened to other members of staff they have told me that if the company does well, so do the bonuses! I enjoy most parts of the job - and I am more than happy to stay, but the management know that I know the company finance situation - so do you think it would be seen as cheeky to ask for more?

Steve Hewitt

 

[KenCunningham]

Steve, I don't think the question of cheek comes into it really. My reading of this is that you feel dissatisfied in your current situation because you're not being paid what you feel you're worth to the company. Perhaps because other parts of the company aren't performing as well as they might, you may be unlikely to get much change when asking for a raise. At the end of the day, many managers see IT only as a facilitator for the rest of the company, and fail to see it's central role in the task of keeping the sales or whatever departments on the ball.

In the current recruitment climate (in the UK and from what I've read the US) you'll have to be supremely confident in your ability to land another job to avoid the possibility that your bluff will be called and you'll be searching in an already saturated job market (somewhat dependant on where you are based geographically of course). My own view is that to avoid this possibility, take KornGeek's advice and accept a smaller raise with a built-in review period. Many people have thought that the grass is greener on the other side only to find that it's mud. Good luck whatever.

 

[RiverGuy]

It seems you have 2 immediate choices:

1. Stay part-time (unless that is out of the question for you), and continue your other consulting.

2. Go full-time for now, and look for another job.

Pick the one that has the best combination of stability, money, and personal satisfaction for the short term.

Even if the FT position is not close to market value, if it is more attractive than your current situation, then do it for now. Even if you don't tell them it will be for short term, you can still look and move on when another opportunity arises.

 

[Stevehewitt]

Another good post,

Seems that I wasn't really thinking that logically. Suprising how another persons (or a number of people!) angle on things really makes sense.

I can only stay F/T really - and that is what I will do.

Thanks to everyone who has posted. Interesting discussion.


Cheers,





Steve Hewitt