What could certs guarantee? 5

[theThirdElement]

Hello,

I'm about to graduate on my Software Engineering degree, and I plan to pursue some certs after graduation. People have been telling (and trying to convince) me that getting certs can guarantee a promotion or a better job with better salaries. I wonder how much truth is in there? Can you share your experience on that?

It also appears, after reading the posts, that exp is more valuable than the certs. Also what it seems is that certs take a reasonable amount of time and money, and will expire in a few years. What are your opinions on that?

Thanks for all the advices!

Ed

 

[Wishdiak]

Ed,

While it is true that generally experience is more valuable to a potential employer than certifications, Microsoft certifications do not expire.

The operating systems that the certifications pertain to may reach the end of their life cycles (generally 7 years, according to Microsoft) but the certifications are still valid.

There are IT certifications that do expire, but you posted this in the Microsoft certification and testing Forum

In my opinion, your best bet is to find a job in an industry that you like, and persue some certifications while there. It's even better if you can get them to pay for your certifications, but even if you can't, it may help you land a better position with your company or another company.

Wishdiak
A+, Network+, Security+, MCSA: Security 2003

http://www.wishdiak.com

 

[NickFerrar]

I don't think a cert will guarantee you anything, possibly that your CV won't be rejected on the first pass but not a lot more than that. Some employers certainly set goals about passing certs and it might be a pre-requisite for a promotion but I think/hope there would be a lot more factors involved.

Given a choice between experience and certs I'd take experience, certs are a lot easier to get.

 

[theThirdElement]

Hello,

Thank you for your replies.

WishDiak,

Yes I'm thinking of going into some large commercial corporations, so hopefully there will be some company policy about employees getting certifications.

NickFerrar,

So it appears to me that a certification wouldn't be too much use. But there is still the hype about everyone going for certs? I've even heard that someone managed to get a job by simply saying that he was about to do exams for a cert, even though the truth was he didn't even started the book.

So overall, is getting certified the first and best way to further my career, apart from gaining exp over time?

Cheers,

Ed

 

[woodraith]

Ed,

some company use the certs as a pre-qualifer. i.e. is you have 500 apps toss any that don't have certs. and the person doing the hiring is a HR person that does not know how to turn on a computer.

my 2 coppers.
get the certs, AND the exp.
also keeping them current will show the company that you are keeping current with technowlege, that give the HR people something to gage you personal growth.

I work for a big company any they have put updating your cert and a personal goal for the year on my review.

 

[theThirdElement]

Woodraith,

I see. So one of the main purposes of certs is to get pass the HR people. Hopefully as time passes I'd have the exp, and certainly be getting some certs.

Thanks for sharing!

Ed

 

[mattrgee]

Don't forget, doing certs shouldn't just be for the benefit of the HR monkeys or perspective employers, they can be for the benefit of yourself. Knowing you have expert knowledge about a specific technology or application can be very rewarding as well, even if it isn't reflected in your salary.

 

[SimonDavies]

Certs on their own are pretty much worthless in my opinion. They should at the very least get you an interview but they shouldn't get you a position based purely on having the cert.

In the old days of NT4 and Windows 2000 MCSE's you had what was known as a paper MCSE, bascially that person had the certification but no experience to back it up with.

Anyone hiring someone based purely on their certification certainly isn't someone I would want to work with, they should know their stuff as well as you.

I honestly think the best thing to do is get a job in the particular part of the industry that you want to, get some experience and after a year or two back it up with a certification or two. Microsoft certification starts with the MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional), this shows you have a competence on that particular exam and no more. Using that certification helps you with future job prospects and can benefit you with your goals and ambitions.

One word of advice, it's better to have a good cv that shows your experience and varied job activities than certs alone.
In my experience I haven't had dealings with HR, it should be the job of the hiring manager to decide who to interview and who to offer the job to based on experience.

Think long and hard about joining a company who use their HR as a primary vetting process, after all what IT knowledge do they actually have?

 

[NickFerrar]

I guess it depends on the size of the company but HR is for many the first point of contact for job applicants. IT managers don't have time (and it's not a good use of their time anyway) to go through 500 CVs when only 100 of them might be remotely suitable.

 

[theThirdElement]

Hi,

Your comments are all very valuable to me. They are very helpful in setting and correcting my future goals.

After confirming that the certificates are of certain value, next step I shall start researching which certs are worth doing for a software developer.

Many Thanks,

Ed

 

[jtb]

I had the job and the experience before getting the certs; but having a group of certified people does have benefits to corporations--who then ought to reward the people proportionately...

Back in the 90s, we were told we'd get a $15,000 bonus for becoming MCSEs, essentially "$5,000 now, $5,000 a year from now, and $5,000 a year later"... (of course it was a lot less after taxes but it bought a piano, an out-of-town vacation, paid off some bills and let us put a little extra rice and kimchee on the table)

Now, it's one of the ways the company decides who to keep... So a current MCSE is a potential job-saver for folks on my team.

Each of us in in a different situation; but--IMHO--having certs is as valuable to the holder as their employer or anyone else is willing to pay. Period.

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[theThirdElement]

jtb,

I've been told of what you experienced in the 90's, that's why I would like to confirm this here. But apparantly things have changed and general perceptions are not true any more.

I'm sad to hear that certs are no longer a way to get promoted but a way to keep your current position. Life is no longer as good as it used to be in IT...back then anyone who knew HTML could get a decent salary...even companies would line up in our university begging the program supervisors to "give" them some graduates, because they were just so limited. Now we gotta look for ourselves, and wouldn't be able to find a job easily.

Ed

 

[setnaffa]

There are hundreds of jobs... we just need to know how to marketing and sales about our talents... not just fixing pc or writing program...

we can take the crumbs from the table or we can be like pioneer and blaze new trails...

certs is just one way, like degree or like experience... no one wants to hear worldcom or enron but many workers there were very smart, very good--just bosses were crooks...

i think it was always true that cert industry tells student "get cert = get rich" and greedy person take it... or person without self confidence...

we need to make plans like military to conquest our goals... or like mountain climber to climb successfully the mountain everest...

person with "no job" has two choices: a. look for job b. don't look for job

if "b", no worries. but if "a", don't waste time. make good plans, be professional, research target company, personal networking to find out who does hiring, find out what they need and show them you can do that.

Setnaffa is an MCP-W2K (working on MCSE-W2K) with a few other certs, too...

 

[aftertaf]

In my case the certs are a way of validating my experience.

I am selftaught on IT, no schooling until i did my MCSA course.

When i passed my first mcp last year, it became the first IT qualification on my CV. It has helped me change jobs, though i'm heading for MCSE to try and continue climbing the career ladder. When coupled with experience, the certs 'guarantee' that your experience is one of quality, as opposed to the NT days of paper MCP/MCSE. Then again, they don't always guarantee anything, but when obtained and on the CV along with the experience, your CV will stand out more than a paper MCSE or a self taught without any paper.

I pursue for job reasons, but also for personal reasons. I found it boosted me loads getting certified, especially at the time when my employer didnt exactly try to cultivate self confidence. And i was proud as hell to get my first MCP, as i was with the others after.
And i knox i'll crack out the champagne for my MCSE if i manage it... IMHO having a high level of certifs reassures some recruiters, helps them think you CAN do the job and reduces their risk... dont forget every job recruitment is a risk for both parties...

Aftertaf

"Solutions are not the answer." - Richard Nixon

 

[setnaffa]

Frankly, after going through quite a few tests, I'm proud of anyone who passes the tests without cheating...

Certs don't guarantee big money jobs; but they do help differentiate people...

Setnaffa is an MCP-W2K (working on MCSE-W2K) with a few other certs, too...

 

[jfp23]

Certs for the most part are useless, it only shows that you can pass a multiple choice test, with the exception of the CCIE which requires you to actually be able to work in a lab situation. Afterall what the book says and what works in a real situation are two totally different things. If you want to get ahead, get a masters degree it takes a lot more work, and it provides a bigger payoff.

I have no certs but I do have a college degree and 10 years of experience.

 

[theThirdElement]

aftertaf,

Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I'm quite happy to see that certs are giving your self-confidence as well as a career advancement.

jfp23,

Personally I wouldn't think a master degree is going to be much use than certs. I'm not sure about what happens in other areas but in Australia here you can get a IT master degree, EVEN if you haven't got a bachelor degree in IT and you have no prior experience in computing whatsoever. So it would turn out that a 2 year IT master wouldn't have as much experience indeed as a 4 year IT bachelor.

What it seems here so far in the thread, experience + certs seems to work very well, regardless of uni degrees. What a shame .

Cheers,

Ed

 

[Wishdiak]

theThirdElement,

Here in the U.S. at least, experience is the #1 factor that employers want.

They want to know that a candidate has real experience in doing the tasks, not just certifications, but certifications are a plus.

Wishdiak
A+, Network+, Security+, MCSA: Security 2003

http://www.wishdiak.com

 

[aftertaf]

theThirdElement,
Thanks for your feedback and encouragement too...

another word on this:
It also depends on who you are marketing your skills to.

Take France, where i am...
You have SSII (IT Specialist societies that 'place' their staff at clients workplace for a defined timespan, to manage a certain project etc...). The SSIIs want people with certs, because they 'look' good and flashy when then market their workforce. This is why my certs helped me get my job.

You also have private employers and big institutions that require candidates to have uni IT degrees (which i don't have...).

And everyone wants experience, but not too much in SSII because experience means you'll be more demanding... They have a bit of a bad reputation as meat merchants, and i'd prefer having a job elsewhere... but each step at a time.

My experience helped me get certs, along with my coursework, and not forgetting my IT experience in the fields i passed (2000, AD, ...)
My certs helped me broaden my work experience, and my career can continue to evolve that way, hopefully. I continue on the MCP track, and want to change, evolve to have more responsabilities and put my 'theory' into practise and hard experience.

Aftertaf

"Solutions are not the answer." - Richard Nixon

 

[jvmcse]

I think it boiles down to both. If you have certs and a degree, you can’t go wrong! I don’t have a degree, and haven t finished my MCSE. Just a few certs(MCP,Net+,A+) with 3yrs exp. I need 1 more for my MCSA, and 3 more for my MCSE. I currently make 48,000, which isn’t alot, but it pays the bills. I don’t have a degree, but will defiantly try to work towards it when I’m done with the MCSE and other certs. So in my opinion, people hiring are either look for Certs or degrees. If you have both you can’t go wrong.

jvmcse