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what browsers to support? 1
- Thread starter y2k1981
- Start date
IIIBradIII
MIS
If you're really interested in cross-browser compatibility (and it sounds like you are, good for you too), make sure your pages conform to W3 specs and you'll be fine. We've all been guilty at some point of not writing good code, but these days we need to be more careful than ever - people are dropping IE more and more in favor of Opera, Safari & the like.
<?legalstuff
The above is my opinion only and should not be construed as the opinion of my employer.
?>
<?legalstuff
The above is my opinion only and should not be construed as the opinion of my employer.
?>
Honestly -- disregard NN4 -- it's way to buggy and you will go insane trying to make it look exactly the same as every other browser. I tend to code for most current browsers as my philosophy is (kinda selfish) if they dont want to take the time to update their browsers then why should i care about them. But honestly my sites work fine for the most part in all browsers except for NN4 -- always a bit buggy but I dont care!
[Hammer]
Nike Failed Slogans -- "Just Don't Do It!"
[Hammer]
Nike Failed Slogans -- "Just Don't Do It!"
Your web pages should declare a DOCTYPE and validate to it ( ). This should make them look OK in current versions of all browsers. Sounds like you're already doing this, well done.
Your pages MUST look good in IE 5, 5.5 and 6. Whatever IIIBradIII might say, however much we might hate Micro$oft (or not), however cool Mozilla is, these browsers dominate the market. According to 93% of surfers use IE5+. The Google zeitgeist tells a similar story.
As for older browsers - IE4, NN4, whatever. My advice is don't worry. So long as your site can be read (looking however dull and/or ugly) by these browsers, you've probably done enough.
-- Chris Hunt
Extra Connections Ltd
The real world's OK for a visit, but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!
Your pages MUST look good in IE 5, 5.5 and 6. Whatever IIIBradIII might say, however much we might hate Micro$oft (or not), however cool Mozilla is, these browsers dominate the market. According to 93% of surfers use IE5+. The Google zeitgeist tells a similar story.
As for older browsers - IE4, NN4, whatever. My advice is don't worry. So long as your site can be read (looking however dull and/or ugly) by these browsers, you've probably done enough.
-- Chris Hunt
Extra Connections Ltd
The real world's OK for a visit, but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!
Here's some food for thought statistics for the year 2003 from the company site I maintain:
IE5 60%
IE6 29%
NN6/Mozilla 4%
NN4 2.5%
IE4 1%
NN3 .1%
Konqueror .04%
Opera7 .04%
Opera6 .01%
The rest of the percentages go to various bots out there. Factor these extra percentages into the figures above and were definately close to the 93% IE users stated in the above post.
IE5 60%
IE6 29%
NN6/Mozilla 4%
NN4 2.5%
IE4 1%
NN3 .1%
Konqueror .04%
Opera7 .04%
Opera6 .01%
The rest of the percentages go to various bots out there. Factor these extra percentages into the figures above and were definately close to the 93% IE users stated in the above post.
Check this out to see what components of a page are incompatible with different browsers (plus many additional checks too).
Also, Netscape is just a prettied-up added-software-packed version of Mozilla, so if NN works, Mozilla works too.
Also, Netscape is just a prettied-up added-software-packed version of Mozilla, so if NN works, Mozilla works too.
IIIBradIII
MIS
I have to disagree with those stating that because IE makes up for 90%+ of their traffic count, it's the only browser they're concerned with accomodating. That's fine if you want to take that stance - you'll only piss off 7-10% of your potential customers. Too bad it just might be those customers you want to keep.
I just checked the stats of one of my client's sites - 85% IE, 12% NN, and the rest are <1% each. Based on that site's traffic, that 12% represents over 10,000 different users - 10,000 potential customers that just might want to buy something. That's not a group I want to alienate!
Like I said before, we've all done it - coded our pages for IE only. These days though, if you want to be considered a professional, you'd better get your code up to specs. W3 provides all the information you need - heck, they even provide a validator for you in case you screw up. Learn the specs - in the long run you'll be glad you did.
<?legalstuff
The above is my opinion only and should not be construed as the opinion of my employer.
?>
I just checked the stats of one of my client's sites - 85% IE, 12% NN, and the rest are <1% each. Based on that site's traffic, that 12% represents over 10,000 different users - 10,000 potential customers that just might want to buy something. That's not a group I want to alienate!
Like I said before, we've all done it - coded our pages for IE only. These days though, if you want to be considered a professional, you'd better get your code up to specs. W3 provides all the information you need - heck, they even provide a validator for you in case you screw up. Learn the specs - in the long run you'll be glad you did.
<?legalstuff
The above is my opinion only and should not be construed as the opinion of my employer.
?>
I did not, and would not, say that you should only code for IE. I said that your page must look good in IE. Fortunately IE generally does a pretty good job of rendering valid, standards-compliant code, but (like all browsers) it has a few faults and foibles. You have to make sure that none of them mess up your page.
Your original statement that "people are dropping IE more and more in favor of Opera, Safari & the like" is, at best, misleading. Sure IE's market share is probably shrinking in the face of competition, but it's shrinking from, say, 95% to 90%. I can't see it losing total dominance of the market anytime soon, so "looking good on IE" is still any site's top (but not only) priority.
-- Chris Hunt
Extra Connections Ltd
The real world's OK for a visit, but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!
Your original statement that "people are dropping IE more and more in favor of Opera, Safari & the like" is, at best, misleading. Sure IE's market share is probably shrinking in the face of competition, but it's shrinking from, say, 95% to 90%. I can't see it losing total dominance of the market anytime soon, so "looking good on IE" is still any site's top (but not only) priority.
-- Chris Hunt
Extra Connections Ltd
The real world's OK for a visit, but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!
IIIBradIII
MIS
Calm down there Chris - no sense getting riled up over browsers. The premise of "I'm mostly concerned with only 90% of my visitors" is what I'm opposed to - if the shoe fits, wear it.
My statement about folks moving away from IE lately isn't misleading, although I can see how it might seem so to someone who doesn't watch these things closely. No offense taken.
The recent news that Microsoft is giving up on IE for Mac is further proof that other browsers will continue to survive and should be recognized in our code. Also don't forget that many popular browsers can spoof the user-agent - this skews our traffic counts if those users select IE as the agent, making it appear as though we have more IE users than we really do.
<?legalstuff
The above is my opinion only and should not be construed as the opinion of my employer.
?>
My statement about folks moving away from IE lately isn't misleading, although I can see how it might seem so to someone who doesn't watch these things closely. No offense taken.
The recent news that Microsoft is giving up on IE for Mac is further proof that other browsers will continue to survive and should be recognized in our code. Also don't forget that many popular browsers can spoof the user-agent - this skews our traffic counts if those users select IE as the agent, making it appear as though we have more IE users than we really do.
<?legalstuff
The above is my opinion only and should not be construed as the opinion of my employer.
?>
To say "I'm mostly concerned with only 90% of my visitors" seems quite reasonable to me. We all have impossible deadlines, and we can't test every configuration as thoroughly as we'd like to. So where are you going to put most of your effort? Making sure 10,000 have the best experience, or looking after 90,000 of your visitors? Where are most "potential customers that just might want to buy something" more likely to be, in the 10,000 group or the 90,000 group?
I suppose it's all about priorities. If you ignore IE because you know there are better browsers that everyone should be using, you probably won't get many jobs. It's like people creating websites for Macs because they might think everyone should make the switch. IIIBradIII, you're 100% right about learning the specs, but browsers do have their quirks. Stick to the specs, you'll have a good base to work from, but concentrate 90% of your development effort on what 90% of your users are going to see. Or, be mostly concerned with only 90% of your visitors.
It's good to keep an eye on trends, but be realistic too. Look at what people outside the web development community are using, especially non-techie folk. Chances are, that's your audience. Chances are, they're not spoofing user-agents. Chances are, they've never even heard of Mozilla. Chances are, they don't even think in terms of browsers, but in terms of 'getting on the internet'. Easiest way on most default configurations is clicking that Internet Explorer icon...
I suppose it's all about priorities. If you ignore IE because you know there are better browsers that everyone should be using, you probably won't get many jobs. It's like people creating websites for Macs because they might think everyone should make the switch. IIIBradIII, you're 100% right about learning the specs, but browsers do have their quirks. Stick to the specs, you'll have a good base to work from, but concentrate 90% of your development effort on what 90% of your users are going to see. Or, be mostly concerned with only 90% of your visitors.
It's good to keep an eye on trends, but be realistic too. Look at what people outside the web development community are using, especially non-techie folk. Chances are, that's your audience. Chances are, they're not spoofing user-agents. Chances are, they've never even heard of Mozilla. Chances are, they don't even think in terms of browsers, but in terms of 'getting on the internet'. Easiest way on most default configurations is clicking that Internet Explorer icon...
Not to try & throw any more feul onto this fire, but doesn't Opera identify itself to web servers as Internet Explorer? I think I read that once on Opera's site where they had an article on how to send e-mail to webmasters to beg for Opera support (seriously!).
Could the percentages of Opera users just plain out be unknown?
I don't think so, though, as I do not personally know anyone who will spend money on a browser nor anyone who wants ads popping up in their browsers; and isn't that why most people switch away from IE, to block the pop-up ads?
Just make a flawless site in IE, make 90+% of the people happy. Then make the site "good enough" in, say, Mozilla; and those who do use alternate browsers already understand that broswers will always be different.
Could the percentages of Opera users just plain out be unknown?
I don't think so, though, as I do not personally know anyone who will spend money on a browser nor anyone who wants ads popping up in their browsers; and isn't that why most people switch away from IE, to block the pop-up ads?
Just make a flawless site in IE, make 90+% of the people happy. Then make the site "good enough" in, say, Mozilla; and those who do use alternate browsers already understand that broswers will always be different.
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1
- #12
without going into reading the replies yet (which I will and if repeat apologies)
my suggestion: support the browsers your clients and viewers want and will be using. This really isn't a hard task to figure out. if your viewers are in the lower age groups like 18-30, they will most likely be running updated versions of their browsers. If your viewers are the older gen. like 45-60 and not those of a computer gen. that are up on tech. there will be more hits with older browsers. Then you support them. I personaly do not think it is a bad concept at all to not support older versions like NN4. I do think a message on that fact in the site should be awarded to let them know why they are not viewing the correct format and functionality.
The stat's are a good place to start! They are not fool proof though. One thing you can do is set up a stat's page on your site and after a few months run a report on what is coming in. Then you can optimize for older versions if the percentage is greater then you like.
____________________________________________________
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Make it clear and about the topic so we can find it later for reference. Please!! faq333-2924
my suggestion: support the browsers your clients and viewers want and will be using. This really isn't a hard task to figure out. if your viewers are in the lower age groups like 18-30, they will most likely be running updated versions of their browsers. If your viewers are the older gen. like 45-60 and not those of a computer gen. that are up on tech. there will be more hits with older browsers. Then you support them. I personaly do not think it is a bad concept at all to not support older versions like NN4. I do think a message on that fact in the site should be awarded to let them know why they are not viewing the correct format and functionality.
The stat's are a good place to start! They are not fool proof though. One thing you can do is set up a stat's page on your site and after a few months run a report on what is coming in. Then you can optimize for older versions if the percentage is greater then you like.
____________________________________________________
The most important part of your thread is the subject line.
Make it clear and about the topic so we can find it later for reference. Please!! faq333-2924
I watch these things and my observation is that IT folks tend to be the only ones moving away from IE(IT seems to have somekind of M$ backlash). People who just use a pc tend to stick with IE. I know this because I do some pc repair work on the side and see it first hand.
Depends on the group you are looking at.
Which is why I tend to develop my sites for who I think will be looking at them. Do not get me wrong I really try my best to get it looking good on all browsers but if I design a site say for candles and I know a majority of the customers will be stay at home moms and I have a great design idea that will only work with IE I will run with it.
Now before anyone comes up with "My mom uses Opera." Sorry but that is the minority and I will gladly bet on it. No attitude intended but there is one in every crowd.
AJ
![[americanflag]](/data/assets/smilies/americanflag.gif "[americanflag] [americanflag]")
Depends on the group you are looking at.
Which is why I tend to develop my sites for who I think will be looking at them. Do not get me wrong I really try my best to get it looking good on all browsers but if I design a site say for candles and I know a majority of the customers will be stay at home moms and I have a great design idea that will only work with IE I will run with it.
Now before anyone comes up with "My mom uses Opera." Sorry but that is the minority and I will gladly bet on it. No attitude intended but there is one in every crowd.
AJ
![[smile]](/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif "[smile] [smile]")
"My mom uses Opera." Hey, I think she uses NN4 still
![[lol]](/data/assets/smilies/lol.gif "[lol] [lol]")
but I won't support her. sorry mom!____________________________________________________
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ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
on one of the sites I maintain, out of the last 1000 uniques the only person using anything but IE (5 through to 6) has been me! (unless you count the spiders that is) and a guy who edits a local directory who still insists on using IE4 because that's what his computer came with!
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
This thread has long since over-stated it's original purpose; but I'll make one more comment anyways then shut-up.
I hate M$ just like as much as anyone else, I use Mozilla, but the simple fact is, IE is the standard, not the w3c, and if everyone just realizes this we can finally start simplifying these browser debates.
Instead of sitting here preaching how we should or should not program web-sites, instead put pressure on Opera and Mozilla to catch up with the webpage support that IE offers. You're paying $40 for Opera, shouldn't you be entitled to the same benifits as IE? Or donate money to the Mozilla team and help them along.
I hate M$ just like as much as anyone else, I use Mozilla, but the simple fact is, IE is the standard, not the w3c, and if everyone just realizes this we can finally start simplifying these browser debates.
Instead of sitting here preaching how we should or should not program web-sites, instead put pressure on Opera and Mozilla to catch up with the webpage support that IE offers. You're paying $40 for Opera, shouldn't you be entitled to the same benifits as IE? Or donate money to the Mozilla team and help them along.
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