W XP not supporting Java..any opinions on this...

[pipk]

Windows XP will not support Java.

Microsoft's Java support diminished for &quot;business reasons&quot;: In a manoeuvre likely to inspire some choice words from Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNealy, Microsoft announced that its Windows XP operating system, scheduled for release this fall, will not support Java-based programs <<

http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/018344.htm>>.

A Microsoft spokesman said support for Java software had waned primarily for &quot;business reasons. <<

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2790355,00.html?chkpt=zdnn_tp_>>&quot;

Business reasons indeed. In January Sun settled a lawsuit it brought against Microsoft that alleged the software giant had violated the terms of its Java licensing agreement by creating a version of Java that was incompatible with other software. Under the terms of that settlement Microsoft was allowed to distribute products carrying only outdated versions of Java technology for seven years. Microsoft spokesman Tom Pilla said the decision to curtail support of Java in XP should come as no surprise. &quot;In the wake of the settlement agreement with Sun and the resolution of that litigation, this approach simplifies our implementation and adherence of that agreement,&quot; Pilla told the Associated Press. &quot;The reality is that (Java) represents a lot of code that the vast majority of users don't need.&quot;
Static Apnea - snorkelling in a swimming pool without the snorkel?

 

[meadandale]

I don't see this as a big deal. Much of the work with java is being done on the server side with results being sent back to your browser. Unless MS decides to unbundle their browser from their OS (not likely) this won't be affected.

If you are distributing a desktop java app (like we are) it is common to include the JRE for just this reason (we do).

About the only people this will affect is people who write applets for public web pages. Then again, when people go to a page that has Flash, they are given the opportunity to download it and install it on the fly. They same thing will happen with windows XP for java. I see it as a non-issue. It certainly isn't going to drive me to C#.

 

[haslo]

Being way too much into Java and far away from any M$-language (like VB or the upshowing C#), I am pretty optimistic that Microsoft won't scare away those people that already know the benefits of that language or first ask somebody who does. But implicitly saying that Java is not the slightest bit more secure than any other language is simply wrong and a misinformation. The integrated Java Security is clearly a benefit. The M$ hint could be misinterpreted (regarding reality) and another, way less secure language could be chosen instead of Java.

Then there's the platform independence. As meandale already said - it's clear that a JRE has to be shipped with any application. Well, even for newer applets you have to download an up to date version. As it was already correctly stated in these forums before, developers normally use newer versions than the average user, nowaday's browsers having only JRE 1.1 running!

The only thing Java loses - and this one is important - is publicity. Java raised in the last few years. Unlike i.e. C++ it's not necessary for an OS to natively support it - and so it gets out of control for Microsoft. They scare it away from their OS, and the Java community has lost a very important PR factor: presence. It must not be the newest version of the JRE, but if there is any version there's the &quot;ah, well, that's something that runs on my computer too&quot;-effect (could have a shorter name, couldn't it ;-)) that creates trust and confidence.

But: Can we do anything about what M$ does? Keep happily hacking, that's the only thing left to say for me...

allow thyself to be the spark that lights the fire
haslo@haslo.ch - www.haslo.ch​

 

[pipk]

Surely though, this could be construed as anti-competitive in just the same way as the recent Microsoft/Netscape hoo haa as well - why aren't the US anti-trust watchdogs trying to stop M$ do this as well. What is it that the netscape/IE scenario had that windows/java support doesn't??

 

[meadandale]

Java is platform independant but in order for java to run, there needs to be a JVM (java virtual machine) to run on the native platform that the java code runs in. Historically, M$ has included their (horked up) JVM with IE but they are no longer going to do that. That is why you can view applets on web pages..because there is a VM that the browser is using.

M$ is not (yet) actually sabotaging the use of Java on M$ machines, just making it more difficult to get pre-installed support. The only people that this is going to affect is the newbie/ignorant people who are on dial up access and are trying to use applets on the general Internet. They will be forced to download a JVM when they go to a page that needs one (like Flash forces you to do) or they will not be able to run the applet.

 

[iSeriesCodePoet]

Maybe most OEMs will include the &quot;Offical&quot; JVM from Sun on the machine so the consumers don't have to download it.
Mike Wills
RPG Programmer

&quot;I am bad at math because God forgot to include math.h into my programming!&quot;

Please let us (Tek-Tips members) know if the solutions I provide are helpful to you. Not only do my posts help you but they may help others.

 

[d17]

I know that maybe this is not question for this thread, but just like lots of people I am concerned about the Java VM within windows. I am running on WinXP and few days ago I installed MS Java VM (Build 3805) but it is not working at all. Any applet is not running on my box(no matter I am looking at pages with applets from localhost or from anywhere on the net), no change after the instalation of MS Java VM, not one working applet. Can anybody help me, please? Thank you very much for your attention and time, Sincerely,
Kamil SZALAY
Szalay@Dimension17.sk

http://www.Dimension17.sk

 

[wushutwist]

The MS JVM is stuck back at 1.1.7 so if you try to run anything using Swing (or other Java 2 features) then it is not going to work. I recommend downloading and installing Sun's JVM for windows. Check java.sun.com for more info.

 

[d17]

TO: wushutwist
Thanks, I will try it. But I am still wondering what is going on, because there is maybe somthing wrong with the installation, because even the samples installed within the MS SDK for Java aren't working as well. So there is big chance that nothing will work again even if I would install other VM. Sincerely,
Kamil SZALAY
Szalay@Dimension17.sk

http://www.Dimension17.sk

 

[pipk]

holy cow, that is a blast from the past!!!

 

[haslo]

I was a little amazed, too s-)

allow thyself to be the spark that lights the fire
haslo@haslo.ch - www.haslo.ch​

 

[hoc7hoi9]

Looking for a solution for my problem I found this thread. I hope this non-supporting Java by MS is the cause of my problem: I just loaded the Operea 6.03 with Java to use along with IE 6.0 in WinXP, but from then on I could not log on to hotmail. It keeps telling me to enable the javascripts or upgrade to IE 5.0+ (upgrade?)! This happened in both Opera and IE. However, if I boot through WinMe, where there is non-Java Opera 6.0 installed along with IE 6.0, I have no problems getting into hotmail. I have not got time to uninstall the Java-Opera yet, but should I? Please advise.

 

[BaconMakinWabbit]

I believe that this is an interesting issue that can not be easily fixed. M$ is a huge $$$ amking corporation that believe that nothing should be given away and, as such we see such blatant disregard for the M$ customer base who really has no where else to go.
You might say, &quot;Well you could use Linux...&quot; While that is true there is still no way that the average user will be able to install the software much less run it as efficiently as M$.
There is supposed to be a &quot;fix&quot; that will allow M$ XP users to customize which components of the OS you want to install and it is supposed to allow the users to substitue third party software in place of the M$ stuff. It should allow OEM to install whichever software they want on new PC's.
As consumers it should be us that run the market. Demand these things from Microsoft and your computer distributors. I get really sick of people telling me what I need to buy. I build computers for my clients all the time (as we do small business IT outsourcing) and I should be able to bundle what the client wants, not what M$ tells me to. Also it should be illegal to sell those operating systems for so much. A CD costs a nickle, less for M$. If I were to go buy a retail copy of XP full version, it would cost as much as it would to build a brand new PC.
It is plain disgusting. I want my JVM.