virii and fora 3

[Dimandja]

Isn't it a little overwrought to use latin plural forms for IT's viruses and forums?

What next, "mice"?

 

[strongm]

Why is it overwrought?

 

[chessbot]

Are you begrudging us our radii and nuclei as well?

--Chessbot

"In that blessed region of Four Dimensions, shall we linger on the threshold of the Fifth, and not enter therein? Ah, no! [...] Then, yielding to our intellectual onset, the gates of the Sixth Dimension shall fly open; after that a Seventh, and then an Eighth -- --" Flatland, A. Square (E. A. Abbott)

 

[Dimandja]

>Why is it overwrought?

I don't really know; it's a feeling I get. Computer viruses are really not virii in the medical term; they are new creations someone decide to call "virus": a brand new word would do better, I guess.

Now, if I have one computer mouse, and then I buy another one; do I have 2 "mouses"?

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

No, you would have a pair of Mice ... so don't leave them together overnight ... unless they are the same gender, in which case ... nahh, let's not go there.

Happy New Year to one & all.

 

[strongm]

>they are new creations someone decide to call "virus"

Not at all. They are something that pretty closely mimics something in the real world, and therefore got given the same name

 

[craigsboyd]

I stick with "mice" and "viruses". Mice - because mouses is just wrong. Viruses - because it is the term in widest use or at least the one I have come in contact with the most... however I would accept and understand "virii" were it used (and it is).

http://www.sweetpotatosoftware.com

 

[rosieb]

I'm for "mice", "mouses" just sounds wrong. Personally, I'd go for "virii", but I can see why "viruses" is regularly used - but then I don't even like "indexes".

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[jwenting]

Having had a classical education (including several years of Latin) I use the Latin plurals as much as possible but I admit that sometimes I slip.

mouses is just wrong, mice is the proper plural of the word in English and therefore should be used in any context the word mouse is used as the singular.

Indexes too is wrong, it makes me shudder. The proper use in indices, there's no reason to not use it.

 

[MakeItSo]

I agree with jwenting, although at the school I went to, I belonged to the first class that had the choice not to learn Latin/Greek.
I never really regretted that, since we were taught about the roots of words anyway. So I learnt quite a few words in Latin as well as in Greek. Plus: having learnt English as a first, French as a second, Spanish as voluntary extra and German as native language, I can "guess" the meaning of many Latin words anyway...

So I'd say: Mice pass virii and bacteria, not viruses nor bacteriums...

I shuddered when I read about "forums" here - and then shuddered again, when my dictionary told me that this was also valid! (And sometimes I shudder when I catch myself writing "forums")
(-:

I try to use the correct plural forms as well as correct negations wherever possible.

P.S: That's one thing I really like about English:
It still uses a lot of Latin terms in their original form, especially in medical and astronomical/~logical terminology.

[blue]An eye for an eye only leaves the whole world blind. - "Mahatma" Mohandas K. Gandhi[/blue]

 

[sleipnir214]

The good thing about English is that it borrows words from every other language on the planet. The bad thing about English is that it borrows words from every other language on the planet.

It all boils down, as I see it, to at which language you hang your plurals. Folk who have not had a classical education accept that virus and forum are simply English words and pluralize them using English rules -- thus viruses and forums. Folk who have had the benefit of a classical education or who have studied word derivations often use the pluralization rules from the loaning language -- thus you hear virii and fora.

This gets even stranger when you have words that are loaned to English via another language. For example octopus comes to us from Latin, which borrowed the word from Greek, so depending on which authority you listen to, the plural of octopus could be octopuses (English pluralization rules), octopi (Latin) or octopodes (Greek). As I recall, a congress of octopus-studying scientists [sorry -- I don't know the $2.00 for this profession] agreed several years ago to use the convention that when speaking of a collection of animals of one octopus species, one should use octopi but when talking about multiple octopus species, to use octopodes


Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[craigsboyd]

...octopus-studying scientists [sorry -- I don't know the $2.00 for this profession]...

Teuthology is the study of cephalopods, so teuthologists would be the octopus-studying scientists.

http://www.sweetpotatosoftware.com

 

[CajunCenturion]

Does that mean a senior scientist in this field would be 'long in the teuth'?

Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
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[MakeItSo]

when speaking of a collection of animals of one octopus species, one should use octopi but when talking about multiple octopus species, to use octopodes

Like "homos" and "hominis"?

Serious now: In general, when you use a word, you should use it correctly, and that includes the correct plural form.
See also that thread about bad grammar->
Words like "virus" however have become so common, that I wouldn't blame anyone if he/she used "viruses".

BTW: What is the correct plural for "pizza"? pizzi?
Does anyone know what you mean when you order "3 pizzi alla napolitana" if pizza-bob isn't Italian?



[blue]An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. - "Mahatma" Mohandas K. Gandhi[/blue]

 

[Dimandja]

I suspect the reason latin plurals are popularly missing from English, is that English has a "phonetic" plural -- and people like to hear it. Other languages that have silent final Ss (like French) may tend to use another form of plural - like the "phonetic" latin's.

 

[Stella740pl]

Many languages borrow words, not only English. It doesn’t mean, however, that they are left unchanged in their original version, complete with plural and other forms. That’s because languages have their own rules and traditions. Most of the native speakers usually don’t know the language where the word came from, but know (or feel) the rules of their language. In some cases pronunciation, spelling, forms, and meaning do get preserved, but very often they do not. Like it or not, it’s a part of a natural process of language development.

Say, in my native Russian there are many of the words that have become international. Say, “virus” is “virus”, but you can hear “virii” may be among medical students, at best, and never “fora”. It just doesn’t suit general style of the language, that’s it. Just because the word is borrowed, doesn’t mean its plural should. Maybe even the opposite. When the word from borrowed becomes truly appropriated, it creates forms natural for the host language.

(By the way, MS Word autocorrected “fora” to “for a”, and underlined “virii” as an error. Don’t you think a number of users of “forums” and “viruses” would grow vastly from this alone?)

You see, I’ve never had a chance to study “proper” Latin or Greek. Just a few words here and there as a part of other subjects. I did study English as a foreign language, and I did know irregular verbs exist, and even had to memorize a few dozens, but all I knew about “irregular nouns” is that a few exceptions exist from a general “add ’s’ for plural” rule. Say, for some weird reason “child” becomes “children”, and “mouse” becomes “mice”, but that’s nearly all. I work with index files for years, talk to other programmers at work, and only last year did I find out – from Tek-Tips, by the way - that they could be “indices” and not ”indexes”; and only reading this thread I heard that this is a preferable form. America being a heavily immigrant country add to the picture. Many people around, even speaking a relatively good English, create plurals using familiar rules.

And one more note. As sleipnir214 noted, English “borrows words from every other language on the planet”. But for some reason, it tries to use original plurals/pronunciation only from some of them. I don’t shudder, I internally laugh when I hear common pronunciation of “sputnik”. Did you know it’s more like “spOOt-neek”? Did you know the plural was something like “spOOt-nee-kee”? Not that I actually want to hear it in English; “sputniks” is OK with me. Because it’s English now, not Russian any more.

 

[Dimandja]

Wow, Stella, you should post more often! And yes, MS only likes the Englicized versions of thoase words. Who knew?

 

[rasETL]

What is the problem with mouses?

Do you refer to more than house as "hice" or blouse as blice?

The use of -s or -es to denote plural works 90% of the time!

 

[Stella740pl]

rasanders,

What is the problem with mouses?
...
The use of -s or -es to denote plural works 90% of the time!

Nothing, I guess. Maybe just one thing, that mouse/mice belong to the other 10% group. Due to historical reasons. Which are also a part of language development process.

Although I noticed that most people agree that the rodents are mice, but many disagree over computer devices.

Dimandja,

...you should post more often!

You think? I thought that I would be more productive if I spent less time here. I am serious.

 

[asrisk]

What is the problem with mouses?

On a visit to a Disney store, my three-year old daughter declared "What a lot of Mickey Mouses!" Was she correct? Mickey Mice doesn't seem right somehow...

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