Video card purchasing/brands 2

[electronicsfreak]

Ok got a question concerning video card manufacturers. Ok according to a friend of mine he says the card will pretty much be the same no matter what manufacturer you purchase from. Like say I wanted a nvidia geforce 6200 , If I was to purchase from Aopen instead of PNY or someone else it would be the same quality and things because nvidia themselves controls what the person puts in there cards. Im thinking he might be wrong on this but Id thought I ask on here since alot of you know more about video cards then I do. Also from what ive seen my opinion seems to think pny video cards seem to be around the best. Basically my 2 questions are:

Is quality the same on a series between manufacturers?

Second what brands do you reccomend if not?

 

[paparazi]

electronicsfreak
I regard the difference in the quality of graphics cards much like motherboards, there are three distinct tiers.

The top tier: generally the big name brands that make both motherboards and graphics cards ie: MSI, Asus, Gigabyte, Abit.
But I include specialist graphics card manufacturers in this top catagory like: Leadtek, Gainward and of course the chip makers themselves, ATI and Nvidia.

Then the mainstream: Aopen, PNY, Sapphire, Sparkle, Connect3D, Crucial, Tyan

And the cheap end stuff:
Club3D, Powercolour, Pine, Mercury, ECS

General though it's only the last box of manufacturers that I wouldn't buy from as you can actually see the inferior quality looking at the PCB and components used.

Remember that certain manufacturers are loyal to one particular chip manufacturer ie: Sapphire only make cards with ATI chips where as Leadtek stick with Nvidia.

My personal favourates are: Leadtek, Gainward and Asus.

In terms of quality and your friends comments, well to a certain degree he is right, there is little to choose between the vast majority of cards using the same chip but you can also tell him from me, that doesn't mean that there aren't a few to avoid and one or two that you would prefer to choose.
Martin



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[cdogg]

Nvidia and ATI release a base design to other manufacturers and even sell their cards direct to consumers. Cheaper brands take the base design and build it "exactly" according to spec without adding any other features or design enhancements. Basically, their goal is to sell a design just like Nvidia and ATI are selling, except at a lower cost. Such brands like Albatron, Sapphire, Apollo, PNY and ECS are the ones I drop into this category.

Top brands like MSI, Asus, Gigabyte, and Abit study the design, run many tests, and improve things like cooling and noise. In addition, they use high-end capacitors, memory and PCB compound when manufacturing the cards. Also, it's typical that you see more bundled with top brands as well - cables, software, games, adapters, etc. Most of all, their hardware comes fully documented and better online/phone tech support.

One important manufacturing difference I just mentioned is memory. A lot of times, top brands tweak the base design into supporting slightly faster memory or GPU clock design, backing their tweaks with a decent warranty. Also look at memory for a second. In the PC world, not all DDR400 modules are alike (everyone should agree here). You have different timings for lower latency, which clearly makes one module better than another. The same goes with the type of memory top brands select. They usually go with lower timings and modules that have a higher resistance to being slightly overclocked.

It's quite clear that if you're only talking about the actual GPU and architecture design, your friend is right. That is nearly identical across all brands. On the other hand you have performance, durability, support, and compatibility which translate into quality. This is what separates the men from the mice across brands, and gives top makers the ability to sell at higher prices. You get what you pay for.

~cdogg
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
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[electronicsfreak]

I appreciate the info as im always learning lol. Thanks to a game I just recently learned the important of pixel shading lol. Although one game I think they were insane when making quake 4. That game lags just about anything unless your using 6800 or something. I havent tried that series yet. Anyways back on subject thanks to both for the information. Oh now that I reread that above funny you mention pine, lol the first video card I bought was pine although it was a cheap 32MB pci one lol. Although I prefer PNY and after reading comments above ill probably stick with them since im not seeing anything bad on them. While im going with this post might as well ask a few more questions. Ive already learned to look for pixel shading support on cards. What are some other important things to look for when buying one? By the way I usually buy 128MB AGP or bigger lol. Dont have a board to support pci express so cards ill be looking at are agp 8x. Board in case your wondering is msi kt880 which I must say I love this board.

 

[addy]

Just to add to this, I had an ATi 9800Pro which was a Sapphire card and I had a 6800GT which was a Connect3D card if I remember correctly.

I never had a problem with either and was able to run each card overclocked (particularly the 9800Pro).

Yes, you maybe are getting a slightly better quality card if you go with one of the 'more quality' manufacturers but for the majority of users it won't really affect you that much.

 

[paparazi]

Well cdogg explained it much better than me, as he says, certain manufacturers go beyond the "reference" design supplied for each board release.
Gainward and Leadtek lead the way in taking this reference design and improving it.
Typically fitting improved cooling solutions and in Gainwards case, hand picking the fastest memory modules and GPU cores.
After fitting the best of components they then will often factory overclock a few percent beyond refence, so in benchmarks their cards are always a little quicker.

BFG has also gained something of a reputation for getting on the overclocking bandwagon with it's products but from what I've seen they usually stick to the reference designs and use the little overhead every card has, to overclock.

What you might have noticed is that having a large amount of memory on a graphics card does not necessarily gaurantee performance (especially applicable on lower end cards that don't actually need much memory) I will give you one example:

Nvidia's 6600GT with 128mb of very fast DDR3 memory is at least 40% quicker than a plain 6600 with 256mb of normal DDR1 memory installed.
This is because both the GPU core and memory frequencies are much higher on the GT.

Manufactures will often equip relatively slow GPU's with massive amounts of cheap DDR1 memory to trick the unwitting customer into beleiving they are buying a faster card.
For instance I've seen Nvidia's FX 5200 kicking around with 512mb onboard, ridiculous! as the GPU simply does not rendor enough frames at a high enough resolution to ever need a third of that memory.

So what do you look for: you look for the fastest GPU with the fastest memory and memory type, with the best cooling solution and one that is equipt with the latest model shaders for all the eye candy.
Lower models in a range may also be "full core versions" but with pipelines disabled, often these can be re-enabled without detrement (but you need to know exactly which cards etc)

The VGA charts are a good guide , do a Google:

http://www.tomshardware.com

but read reviews: 3D Guru, anandtech.com etc

Martin

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[cdogg]

addy,
Your comment about getting "slightly better quality card" with one of the top brands is correct. It's only slight.

However, besides your experience with a Sapphire and Connect3D card, you have brought nothing new to the table. In fact, you have attempted to disregard other factors that ARE IMPORTANT to many users - tech support, cooling, documentation, bundled software, etc. These are things most average users cannot ignore.

It is borderline to include Sapphire and PNY on the skimpy end of things, but when taking all factors into account, that's where they belong. That doesn't mean you won't get decent performance from either. But I'm willing to bet the percentage of complaints, failures, and lack of support of the number of units sold are going to be higher. In fact, it's something I witness throughout my everyday dealings with disgruntled customers.

~cdogg
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884

 

[electronicsfreak]

Ok im gathering the information however between these post im confused on one thing. Bottom line pny good/bad ? If they are bad I wont order from them anymore. My other agp 128MB card is Aopen.

 

[cdogg]

electronicfreak,

No, that's not the case. PNY and Sapphire are not BAD brands. I just consider them near average. You are likely to hear from many others that they've never had problems with cheap brands. I take my hats off to those folks that tell me that - good for them. The lower end companies would lose money if they couldn't make a decent working product. So that's not what I'm saying is wrong.

What I am saying is that you take a much lower risk in terms of compatibility and durability when going with a top brand. They release driver updates more often, and with any company, you get complaints. But the top brands are continuously addressing these issues, giving excellent support and always refining their products.

The average video card goes through a dozen or more driver updates in a normal lifespan. To the average user, it is better to go with a company that makes those updates easy to find/download, and most of all, frequent. I can't tell you how many times a customer has told me that they never received a response from so and so, or how others discovered later that their warranty was extremely limited.

You cut out the hassle by paying more up front. Some don't like to hear that, especially those that consider themselves power users (like to overclock). They could care less about some of the benefits a top brand includes in your purchase.

Bottom line: Stick with PNY or any other brand if you're happy with them. If you're not happy with your brand, the advice I've given may help you make the right switch to another.

~cdogg
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
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[electronicsfreak]

ah ok lol was just wondering lol. So far im most comfortable with aopen and pny. I hated that pine 3d phantom pos lol. Anyways I really do appreciate the info as im learning as I go.

 

[paparazi]

Well I've just bought an eVGA 7800GT! (fairly new, cheap brand)

My point? well, yes I would rather it had been an Asus or Leadtek but it was considerably cheaper, running at the same speeds and comes with lifetime warranty and as I only kept my last card (Abit X850XT PE) for 4 weeks I'm hardly a user who thinks long term.
Sometimes decisions are based on lots of criteria, in my case I have the 7800GT I wanted, the same performance as other standard 7800GT's but in one month or 1 years time I won't be loosing quite as much money when it comes to re-selling as I would be if I'd paid 25% more for a Gainward or Asus (I've had those too lol)

Martin

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Participate and help others.

 

[electronicsfreak]

Yeah I bet, here in a bit when tax returns come back going to try finding a good 6800 nvida under 200. Note I said try finding lol. Not worried about it right now as I dont have the money to spare but soon as I get it going to get one. While im at this ive noticed something else strange concerning amd athlon xp processors. I notice as there being phased out there getting more expensive. Considering there being phased out you would think they would be cheaper or at least I would. Strange.

 

[addy]

you have brought nothing new to the table. In fact, you have attempted to disregard other factors that ARE IMPORTANT to many users - tech support, cooling, documentation, bundled software, etc.

OK, I will elaborate a bit more.

My COnnect3D 6800GT came with excellent bundled software. Several Game demos, one complete game, DVD viewing software, 3DMark etc.

The documentation was more than adequate, a .pdf manual supplied on CD that was comprehensive enough for just about any home user.

With regards to cooling, we all know that the cooler you can keep your hardware the better, in terms of durability and also being able to overclock if that's your thing, but many users just want to plug their card in and go, they ar ento interested in overclocking, or constantly monitoring temperatures etc.

Each of my cards had stock cooling. It did the job, I never suffered artifacting or any other of the symptoms usually associated with a vid card overheating.

Plus, in my experience, cooling needs to be balanced throughout the system to get the most effect. What I mean is, if you have a decent case which is adequately cooled with front intake fan(s) and rear exhaust fan(s) then the stock colling on your vid card will be sufficient. If you have bad case cooling / ventilation, then the best video card, air cooling you can get will only have limited effect because of the relative temperature of the air in the case.

With regards to tech support, I agree this is an area of concern to end users and you are right to suggest that this is something you will probably find is improved with the larger manufacturers.

 

[cdogg]

addy,

Yeah, I understand that there will be good experiences with any brand out there. Like I said in my last post, stick with a brand that you're happy with. Each individual experience is going to be different.

My perspective in this thread is based on a LARGE number of individual experiences dealing with many of the brands mentioned (though Connect3D is not one of them). When you have gone through as many headaches as I have in troubleshooting off-the-wall problems, you find that many generic brands or ones that are "too cheap to believe" are often more problematic.

I'm a big supporter of testing a product and its driver rigorously before you release it for retail. I also rate the quality based on the amount of support that is given during a product's lifespan (tech support, driver updates, etc). Those companies that have been in the business for a long time and own a large portion of the market understand the importance. Many of the cheaper brands simply don't, and this is true of many different types of PC hardware - not just video cards. That's how they pass much of the savings over to you. In fact, a lot of the video cards you see for cheap are identical across brands. They are manufactured by the same company, but then bought in bulk, labeled, and packaged by another.

Again addy, as you've pointed out, cheaper doesn't always been a bad experience. I'm just one that has learned to stop taking chances - the numbers catch up with you in the end.

~cdogg
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884

 

[cdogg]

Sorry, that should say "[blue]cheaper doesn't always been mean a bad experience[/blue]

 

[paparazi]

Well Support/Documentaion/firmware/drivers/quality/cooling solution, might be important for the average "2 year Cycle" PC owner but are not quite as important to a compulsive upgrader, like myself and many others on this forum.
So whilst I agree with the importance of all the above, they seem less relevant over a shorter term usage.

Shopping around, buying at the right price and selling whilst the card is still popular means I often only loose a $20/$40, sometimes even's (like this last GPU upgrade)and I never buy the absolute latest as you always pay a premium.

It seems to me now, that I loose less money buying the more value orientated brands than I do paying the percentage for one of the top names, although obviously I try and avoid any rubbish
Here is the list of cards I've owned and fitted to my main PC in the last TWO YEARS (although I've have many more in my other machines)

Leadtek A250LE TD my ViVo Geforce4 4200Ti 64mb
Leadtek A250ultra Geforce4 4600Ti 128mb
MSI FX5900XT 128mb
MSI FX5900 256mb
Leadteck A380 ultra TDH My ViVo FX5950ultra 256mb
Swap to PCI-e exactly a year ago!
Sapphire X800XT 256mb
Leadtek A400GT TDH 6800GT
Abit X850XT Platinum Edition
eVGA 7800GT

Sad I know
(I won't tell you how many CPU's, motherboards and Hard drives I've had!!) although I've had my LianLi V1000 over a year now.
Martin

We like members to GIVE and not just TAKE.
Participate and help others.

 

[cdogg]

Yes Martin, there might be many like yourself in this forum and that's great! I wish I could stay as caught up as you manage to do.


You're right. If you only plan on keeping a card for a few months to a year and then getting rid of it for the new batch of cards that come through, then I'm sure documentation, reliability, etc., doesn't matter as much.

However, I wouldn't say the average user upgrades that often anymore. In fact, many of my customers upgrade only when it comes to RAM, storage (burners, hard drives, etc), or buying a new PC. In the old days, upgrading the video card, modem, sound card, etc., were more routine than they are today. I remember that a lot of my business back then was upgrading original Pentium users with onboard 2MB video, to an 8MB PCI video card, eventually to a 16 or 32MB PCI video card.

Occasional gamers or non-gamers are quite content with keeping a video card as long as they keep the PC, and might upgrade it once. It is to those users that I offer the 2¢ I've posted in this thread.

~cdogg
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884

 

[electronicsfreak]

lol Well me personally I updgrade when I can however money limits how much I can updgrade. My next upgrade for this thing is a new case.