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Unions - Laborer's Savior or Capitalism's Executioner
- Thread starter DoubleD
- Start date
mrdenny
Programmer
- May 27, 2002
- 11,595
My thoughts on unions are that they are good for the group, but not so good for the person.
A good example is the supermarket strikes we had several months ago here in Southern California. The union voted to strike. Every supermarket worker that I spoke with thought that the offer that the companies were offering was fair, and did not want to strike.
But because some people didn't like the deal all union workers had to strike, loosing months of pay to save a few dollars a month on medical benifits.
I have never been a member of a union, so I can't give you an inside view.
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
![[noevil]](/data/assets/smilies/noevil.gif "[noevil] [noevil]")
(My very old site)
A good example is the supermarket strikes we had several months ago here in Southern California. The union voted to strike. Every supermarket worker that I spoke with thought that the offer that the companies were offering was fair, and did not want to strike.
But because some people didn't like the deal all union workers had to strike, loosing months of pay to save a few dollars a month on medical benifits.
I have never been a member of a union, so I can't give you an inside view.
Denny
--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)
(My very old site)
I did work with a company who's staff was probably about 75% union (pipefitters, plumbers, electricians)
It seems to me that depending on the union and the company, there can be pros and cons (just like politicians)
The experience I had with the unions was good. They looked out for their people and allowed them to still have a good relationship with the company I worked for. They received adequate pay and offered good benefits including training. One thing I liked was the ability to be paid more based on certifications and training (which I have been gyped out of in the past due to not being union and the decision based solely on the discretion of an HR person that didn't know their a-- from a hole in the wall, but I digress...)
Like I said, I think it depends on the union.
It seems to me that depending on the union and the company, there can be pros and cons (just like politicians)
The experience I had with the unions was good. They looked out for their people and allowed them to still have a good relationship with the company I worked for. They received adequate pay and offered good benefits including training. One thing I liked was the ability to be paid more based on certifications and training (which I have been gyped out of in the past due to not being union and the decision based solely on the discretion of an HR person that didn't know their a-- from a hole in the wall, but I digress...)
Like I said, I think it depends on the union.
- Thread starter
- #4
I would agree that it does depend on the union. I've been a union worker, and a non-union worker. Personally, I don't believe most unions serve a purpose in today's society.
Issues I have with most unions:
1. Protect the people who really should be fired.
2. Pay and opportunity is based on seniority, not ability.
3.
There are times and places for unions, but I feel they are few and far between.
I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.
DoubleD![[bigcheeks]](/data/assets/smilies/bigcheeks.gif "[bigcheeks] [bigcheeks]")
Issues I have with most unions:
1. Protect the people who really should be fired.
2. Pay and opportunity is based on seniority, not ability.
3.
mrdenny said:
There are times and places for unions, but I feel they are few and far between.
I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.
DoubleD
Personally, I feel the answer really depends...
On the type of union.
I have large union with a small part of a company total sabatage / break a deal agreed by 90% of the other union associates. Why -- all political. They had no concern for the 100's of unionized workers at the company. They were more concerned about making a point. The company went out of business and 1000's lost their job for the sake of about 30 odd associates belonging to the one union.
Or a union may actually do some good where they actual do work on behalf of their members but understand the limits on the business side.
On the global economy
Way back when, unionization made a lot sense. At least to me after reading my history books. Big business exploited workers and created very unsafe working conditions. the few got very rich at the expense of extreme hardship by the many, and even resulted in the loss of life of some of the workers.
With globalization and leveraged services, the transition will be painful for many of us in IT. We were protected by regionalization. But now servers can be managed from across the ocean. Even easier to outsource software development in many situations. We all know why -- labour costs are far cheaper in South East and East Asia than in USA or the UK.
These new "resources" will make more money which will stimulate their economy and increase the demands for a better standard of living.
Hmmm... This looks very familiar to what the developed world went through. I suspect many workers will demand safer working conditions and more money. The only way they may be able to do this is with the power of Unions. This will most likely require changes in regional legislation. So perhaps history may repeat itself.
The big mystery here will be China. From what I have heard, their standard of living is improving, Tiawan still has not been "absorbed", but past history really suggests that it will be a real struggle to allow unions. This may be perceived as ironic since China is considered a communistic / socialistic country, and unionization is often considered a "left" socialistic concept.
On the local economy
To me, it seems that big business and politics is moving to the "right". Before, benefits used to be a "selling" feature to work for a company -- on-site daycare, top-up pension and stock options, etc. Now, I see a reduction in benefits, no nice bonuses and raises seem to be slim.
Part of this is from the recent recession and the burst of the tech bubble, and the other part is due to outsourcing to off-shore resources. (I am sure the looming debt of the USA is also a concern to many.)
But business and government still seems more brutal seems to be shifting to the "right" -- rulings in favour of business, less environmental restrictions, etc. This may result in another battle between business and workers.
Personal Ethics of the CEO's
We have all seen the greed of the corporate world - Enron, MCI, Nortel, Black. It absolutely amazes me how much senior management "earn". Some of these guys work hard and know their stuff. But others are weak or make poor decisions or seem much more interested their very fat bank accounts than the growth of their company. I guesstimate that earnings for senior management could pay the wages of 500 or 1000+ employees. Does each of these VIP's actually do the work of 500 or 1000+ employees???
Moreover, as per recent legal rulings, some of these the big decision makers make decisions based on personal gain / conflict of interest. This seems to me to be lousy for the company and most of the workers.
What this leads to is frustration and anger. And if pushed far enough, anger and frustration can lead to major mass mobilization, and perhaps unionization of sectors that are currently not unionized.
Personally
I have worked in a Union -- it never helped me. I never had to work on a "line" but I feel this would have been a job I would have hated. And paying union dues is/was painful.
I have worked within a Union environment -- problematic, and really slows things down. I need to do technical jobs but was hindered many times because of a required union activity. Something as simple as climb a ladder.
So I personally feel that unions should be avoided. However, when society demands / requires more equality, a better standard of living, and a safer environment, unionization becomes a necessary action to empower workers.
Yea, I know I ramble.
On the type of union.
I have large union with a small part of a company total sabatage / break a deal agreed by 90% of the other union associates. Why -- all political. They had no concern for the 100's of unionized workers at the company. They were more concerned about making a point. The company went out of business and 1000's lost their job for the sake of about 30 odd associates belonging to the one union.
Or a union may actually do some good where they actual do work on behalf of their members but understand the limits on the business side.
On the global economy
Way back when, unionization made a lot sense. At least to me after reading my history books. Big business exploited workers and created very unsafe working conditions. the few got very rich at the expense of extreme hardship by the many, and even resulted in the loss of life of some of the workers.
With globalization and leveraged services, the transition will be painful for many of us in IT. We were protected by regionalization. But now servers can be managed from across the ocean. Even easier to outsource software development in many situations. We all know why -- labour costs are far cheaper in South East and East Asia than in USA or the UK.
These new "resources" will make more money which will stimulate their economy and increase the demands for a better standard of living.
Hmmm... This looks very familiar to what the developed world went through. I suspect many workers will demand safer working conditions and more money. The only way they may be able to do this is with the power of Unions. This will most likely require changes in regional legislation. So perhaps history may repeat itself.
The big mystery here will be China. From what I have heard, their standard of living is improving, Tiawan still has not been "absorbed", but past history really suggests that it will be a real struggle to allow unions. This may be perceived as ironic since China is considered a communistic / socialistic country, and unionization is often considered a "left" socialistic concept.
On the local economy
To me, it seems that big business and politics is moving to the "right". Before, benefits used to be a "selling" feature to work for a company -- on-site daycare, top-up pension and stock options, etc. Now, I see a reduction in benefits, no nice bonuses and raises seem to be slim.
Part of this is from the recent recession and the burst of the tech bubble, and the other part is due to outsourcing to off-shore resources. (I am sure the looming debt of the USA is also a concern to many.)
But business and government still seems more brutal seems to be shifting to the "right" -- rulings in favour of business, less environmental restrictions, etc. This may result in another battle between business and workers.
Personal Ethics of the CEO's
We have all seen the greed of the corporate world - Enron, MCI, Nortel, Black. It absolutely amazes me how much senior management "earn". Some of these guys work hard and know their stuff. But others are weak or make poor decisions or seem much more interested their very fat bank accounts than the growth of their company. I guesstimate that earnings for senior management could pay the wages of 500 or 1000+ employees. Does each of these VIP's actually do the work of 500 or 1000+ employees???
Moreover, as per recent legal rulings, some of these the big decision makers make decisions based on personal gain / conflict of interest. This seems to me to be lousy for the company and most of the workers.
What this leads to is frustration and anger. And if pushed far enough, anger and frustration can lead to major mass mobilization, and perhaps unionization of sectors that are currently not unionized.
Personally
I have worked in a Union -- it never helped me. I never had to work on a "line" but I feel this would have been a job I would have hated. And paying union dues is/was painful.
I have worked within a Union environment -- problematic, and really slows things down. I need to do technical jobs but was hindered many times because of a required union activity. Something as simple as climb a ladder.
So I personally feel that unions should be avoided. However, when society demands / requires more equality, a better standard of living, and a safer environment, unionization becomes a necessary action to empower workers.
Yea, I know I ramble.
I feel that Unions are kinda like the military.(and in no way do I mean that as a negative comment on the military, I was a proud member of the military for many a year). It would be nice if we didn't need the military and we could spend all that money on fighting disease and housing and other things in that direction. But you can't really get rid of the military cuz of too many #$%^&*s out there. In the same way, unions would not be needed if management fired people cuz they deserve it, not because they aren't sucking up to them.
I hated to see totally worthless individuals being protected by the Union. I have stock in the company and those worthless people are stealing from me. But then the Unions are selective about who they protect too. Even though that is a violation of the Federal laws.
Just like most everything, it definitly is not a black and white thing.
I hated to see totally worthless individuals being protected by the Union. I have stock in the company and those worthless people are stealing from me. But then the Unions are selective about who they protect too. Even though that is a violation of the Federal laws.
Just like most everything, it definitly is not a black and white thing.
I'm on a very similiar thought pattern to most here...
I believe that the time for the Unions, in MOST facilities, has passed. What MOST Unions create now is an additional layer of complexity and protection that can cause more grief and do a lot more harm than good for the company and, in turn, for the employee's it is there to protect.
Personal experiences with most Unions haven't been negative (in regards to people) but have been negative in regards to how they interact with the company. At my current place of employement they grieve everything, costing the facility a lot of time and money, to protect people that don't really deserve it (Anyone with over 10 write ups in a year should've been terminated long ago with no complaints).
But I do understand that at some places the workers still do need protection from the corporation. It is a place by place distinction that needs to be made, but, for the most part, I believe that Unions are no longer necessary and caus e more trouble than they are worth.
I believe that the time for the Unions, in MOST facilities, has passed. What MOST Unions create now is an additional layer of complexity and protection that can cause more grief and do a lot more harm than good for the company and, in turn, for the employee's it is there to protect.
Personal experiences with most Unions haven't been negative (in regards to people) but have been negative in regards to how they interact with the company. At my current place of employement they grieve everything, costing the facility a lot of time and money, to protect people that don't really deserve it (Anyone with over 10 write ups in a year should've been terminated long ago with no complaints).
But I do understand that at some places the workers still do need protection from the corporation. It is a place by place distinction that needs to be made, but, for the most part, I believe that Unions are no longer necessary and caus e more trouble than they are worth.
telnettech
Vendor
i have worked for unions and i currently work for a compant that is not union.....i was a customer serviced rep for a major telecom company and was required to meet a certain standard for being on the phone answering calls.....one day my keyboard went dead adn i could not type orders for customers that i was speaking to....i went "offline" and notified my supervisor that my keyboard was dead and he said he would get a network guy to come look at it but stay on the phone.....i tried to use my mouse to navigate screens but i was use to keyboard shortcuts to go to different screens for info for the customers....after 1 hour of this and no tech guy or manager coming by, i decided to do something on my own.....there was an empty desk across from me that no one sat at.... i took the "initiative" to remove the keyboard from that desk and connect to my desktop....i had no problem with doing that because hey, t wa just a keyboard....i was maybe of the phones a total of 3 minutes....my manager walked by later and i informed him what i did.....the next day i am in his office with union representation getting suspended for "doing another union person's job" and the union rep did not even back me up, THEY sided with the manager....so my point is that the union can help people verify that the "good old boy network" does not get idiots moved ahead of more qualified people, as well as negotiating fair pay and benifits, but they get in the way of trivial tasks that are not part of your job description
The Union protection is primarily for the persons that go to all of the Union meetings and 'smooze' with the stewards. I always supported the Union, but not to that extent, but when I got fired they just went through the motions of getting me back on, but didn't really try. I filed with the Federal Labor Relations board, but they said that unless the Union did something very stupid, they aren't held accountable because they are not lawyers representing you, just some smuck that went to a two class on being a steward. Most stewards at Avaya end up going to management sooner or later. Now what does that tell you?
Unions are great for comparing your compensation to when reviews come around, if you are not union. In my area, there are really no union employees that do what I do. I install and service Avaya SMBS systems.
Mostly I think unions are political fund raising organizations, by rasing your dues and giving it to politicians. They don't even ask they just take the $, and buy a politician.
Mostly I think unions are political fund raising organizations, by rasing your dues and giving it to politicians. They don't even ask they just take the $, and buy a politician.
My union (in the UK) has just stopped the government from extending my retirement age from 60 to 65 and has protected my pension.
Obviously I think it is well worth my monthly subscription.
However I know that all the people who read this who may be forced to work on until they drop dead at some advanced age will think differently and I can understand their POV too.
Is there any other honest answer expected other than one based on self-interest I wonder?
Obviously I think it is well worth my monthly subscription.
However I know that all the people who read this who may be forced to work on until they drop dead at some advanced age will think differently and I can understand their POV too.
Is there any other honest answer expected other than one based on self-interest I wonder?
jaymaechtlen
Technical User
I wonder how long the socialized nations will be able to sustain the benefits, long vacations, and early retirements currently offered.
Surely the demographics will catch up to them, with an aging population and shrinking workforce.
An interesting experiment, this thing we call society/civilization...
Surely the demographics will catch up to them, with an aging population and shrinking workforce.
An interesting experiment, this thing we call society/civilization...
CajunCenturion
Programmer
The key is moderation.
If the company is too strong, you have a bad situation and you need to union to move towards moderation. However, if the union is too strong, you have a bad situation as well, and its the market place, via layoffs and bankrupticies, then will drive towards moderation. Either extreme is just as bad.
--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
If the company is too strong, you have a bad situation and you need to union to move towards moderation. However, if the union is too strong, you have a bad situation as well, and its the market place, via layoffs and bankrupticies, then will drive towards moderation. Either extreme is just as bad.
--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I think that a key to this entire discussion is what government is involved... Unions in Europe are not the same as they are in Asia which are not the same as they were in 1930s US which are not the same as they are in present day US. So I believe that it matters both when (as mentioned above), and where.
~Thadeus
~Thadeus
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