...the two women, Kris and Robert...

[Thadeus]

Kris and Robert Sitting in a Tree.

~thadeus

 

[Welshbird]

Now for me, that makes better sense without the comma. If Kris and Robert were the wives in question - I'd have expected a semi-colon prior to thier names.

Is that just a very British way of using punctuation?

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

 

[SantaMufasa]

And had the author written precisely and unequivocally, perhaps the caption would read:

Among those interviewed were Kris Kristofferson, Robert Duvall, and Haggard's two ex-wives.

And, yes, the omission of the comma prior to the "and" in a comma-separated list is archaic and often ambiguous. That is why many (if not most) schools of journalism and English now teach "x, y, and z" versus "x, y and z".

At this link, for example, they point out:

Consider the following two sentences:

Pain, suffering, loss of income and medical bills are examples of damages.

Pain, suffering, loss of income, and medical bills are examples of damages.

In the first sentence, it could mean a loss of income as well as a loss of medical bills, which doesn't make any sense and is potentially confusing. In the second sentence, it is clear that "loss" refers only to income. For purposes of clarity, use the traditional method of inserting a comma prior to "and" and "or" in a list of items.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[strongm]

It can also cause ambiguity:

I went to tea with my father, the vicar, and Mrs Pilkington

Now, did we got to tea with 2 people or 3?



I went to tea with my father, the vicar and Mrs Pilkington

Now it's pretty clear that it is 3 people

>I'd have expected a semi-colon
>Is that just a very British way of using punctuation?

No - just wrong! ;-)
You'd only really use a semi-colon in a list when the list items themselves had internal punctuation

Three men walked into a pub: John, an Englishman; Cormag, a Scotsman; and Padraic, and Irishman. The barman looked up and said "What is this? Some sort of a joke?"

 

[SantaMufasa]

I went to tea with my father, the vicar and Mrs Pilkington.

Now it's pretty clear that it is 3 people

Yet not quite free of possible ambiguity, especially if the reader follows the "old-school" methodology of losing the comma in front of the "and" in a list. I assert that the following would make it completely unambiguous:

I went to tea with Mrs. Pilkington and my father, the vicar.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[strongm]

Except my father isn't the vicar. That's the point ...

 

[strongm]

I should point out that I was taught to use the comma before then final 'and', and generally support its use. I do recognize, however, occassions when it can cause confusion - and since grammar and puctuation are really just there to eliminate confusion I'm happy to drop it on those occassions

 

[CajunCenturion]

The fact that including the Oxford comma can cause ambiguity coupled with the fact that excluding it can cause ambiguity suggests to me that it should never be optional. You eliminate the potential ambiguity by always using or by never using it. Now, given the following construction, (without regards to musical judgment )
"Her favorite musical groups are Captain and Tennille, Peaches and Herb, and Hootie and The Blowfish.", the Oxford comma is absolutely necessary. Therefore, I always use it, and would love to see the English world universally accept that the Oxford comma is required. There would not be any ambiguity. The father is not the vicar and there are three people at tea.

So what do you do if the father is the vicar? That can be handled at least in one of three ways. First, you could use a non-restrictive clause,
"I went to tea with my father, who is the vicar, and Mrs Pilkington."
or you could use either parenthesis or the dash:
"I went to tea with my father (the vicar) and Mrs "Pilkington."
"I went to tea with my father - the vicar - and Mrs Pilkington."

Wishful thinking, I know, but it's a structure which eliminates the ambiguity (both directions) of the Oxford comma. Then again, we're talking about English ...



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[CajunCenturion]

I'm glad at said "at least" three options because Santa presented a very reasonable fourth.

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[Stella740pl]

CajunCenturion,
I'd really prefer Santa's option if not for strongm's post dated 25-Oct-10 13:32.
Because of his latest post, I would rephrase it as

I went to tea with the vicar, Mrs.Pilkington, and my father.

or

I went to tea with my father, Mrs.Pilkington, and the vicar.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I like Santa's option as well.

With respect to the Oxford comma, if the comma is always used, then the order of the items is irrelevant. However, because we can't be sure of comma usage, even this example suffers from ambiguity.
I went to tea with the vicar, Mrs.Pilkington, and my father.
Mrs. Pilkington might be the vicar.

Another reason why ambiguity exists in this example is because the items in the list are not homogeneous. The list contains a name, a title, and a relationship. That's not wrong, but it contributes to the ambiguity.

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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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[blister911]

I could be way off base with this but, I don't think the Oxford comma is the sole cause of the ambiguity. Add a fouth person to the list and you get the abiguity whether you use the Oxford comma or not.

I went to tea with the vicar, Mr. Jones, Mrs.Pilkington, and my father

I went to tea with the vicar, Mr. Jones, Mrs.Pilkington and my father

Is Mr. Jones the vicar?


Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

 

[RCorrigan]

I'm just glad that "Hootie and The Blowfish" have come up in a "proper" conversation about grammar

<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>

 

[Olaf Doschke]

I just want to add that this kind of comma before "and" or "or" is not existing in the german language and there is still always a way to say things unambigous. And it irritates me more, than it helps. I actually know it from here and read about it perhaps 2 or 3 years ago and did not learn it from english lessons in school. At least I don't remember that lesson, if there was one about enumerations.

I think it's always up to authors to take care about such situations and I'd prefer making things unambigous by rephrasing a sentence rather than using a grammatical detail.

For example, if you read these sentences to someone, the listener will not know about the comma or not, in spoken language that comma has not much of an influence, if at all.

Indeed, in the spoken language you would lower the voice, if "the vicar" was not just another person in the list but an apposition, so spoken language is more accurate here. That's no wonder, spoken language existed before written language.

I'd actually say you could drop that grammar rule like in the german language, even if in most of the times it would make a written sentence less ambigous, it should rather be a good pracice of language to phrase sentences so unambigous, that a missed rule doesn't make that much of a difference anyway.

Bye, Olaf.

 

[Welshbird]

I really don'tlike that comma - it looks completely wrong to me.

To me, this is quite correctfor British (or indeed English) English.

The documentary was filmed over three years. Among those interviewed were his two ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson and Robert Duvall.

Tsk - Soon you'll be asking us to spell things without an 'u' and all sorts of rubbish!

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

 

[RCorrigan]

Fee & don't forget a libral springling of "z"s !!!!!

<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>

 

[strongm]

Not as much of an Americanism as you might think ...

 

[SantaMufasa]

Then there is Boy George, who is ambivalent with these comma rules, thus becoming a Comma Chameleon. <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm or risk. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[jsteph]

...and then there is Vampire Weekend, somewhat less ambivalent:

http://www.lyricsmania.com/oxford_comma_lyrics_vampire_weekend.html