The next step of my dilemma...

[Turpis]

I have an ethical dilemma and other issues.

I started programming a couple of years back to improve things at work that I thought were being done inefficiently, redundant, etc. My company is a manufacturing plant and a little backwards when it comes to technology, we have one (official) IT guy and he is a network engineer. The other (unofficial) is myself, and I work in Quality Assurance. I was tasked with process improvement research a few years back to be able to talk ‘Lean’ with our customers. Out of that came the programming to improve things. I was not told to do this specifically, but when the end users and supervisors saw results, they were all ecstatic and encouraged more. In two years I have infused almost every aspect of this business with programs and databases.

I completed my IT degree a few months back. Before that, I started to grumble (quietly), that I should get a significant raise (more about my pay in a moment) and title augmentation, for the following:
1. Increased office productivity
2. Decreased document error-rate
3. IT solutions/ideas that have saved thousands

I was not asking for a raise for my actual responsibilities, but rather for all the extra stuff I was doing above and beyond. I was told point blank that, ‘if I wanted to be paid to program stuff here, then I can just stop doing it!’. I wasn’t too put off by that statement at the time because I was still a few months away from getting my degree. Now that I have it and feel fairly confident about my programming abilities I am strongly considering leaving, as I have some contacts/recruiters that have promised to place me whenever I give them a call. However, I really like working here for many reasons and only hate (strongly) working here for one. This company pays you by years worked rather than by responsibility. A good example of this is…me. I have worked here for 6.7 years. I am 30. I work in a 15 person department and I have worked myself into second position in this department (that has nothing to do with programming). I am the second lowest paid person in the department. I am in debt to my eyeballs for school and I must leave to have a possibility of ever paying it off.

Here comes the actual dilemma, I developed 90% of the programs on my own personal laptop that I brought up here, used my personal licensed copy of Visual Studio to develop these programs. It has already been established that, while they loved the programs, they were done during down time and did not affect my primary responsibilities, and I was not being specifically paid for that service (their words). Does this mean that all the code is legally owned by me? When I leave, should I strip all modules and programs (while leaving raw data, I know I don’t own that)? They have no clue what it is going to cost them to hire a contract programmer to maintenance any of my programs if they go down. Even if I just leave them and walk away knowing that I got great study time and experience with my efforts, they will be screwed. I really doubt that they will learn a lesson from this too (the backwardness I mention before). They will never rehire me if I leave and my job is not only cushy but extremely secure and I am looking at a volatile job market. So the discussion is two-fold in a way; do I own the code and should I do something about it? And also, should I just sit tight and use this open atmosphere to also further immerse myself into .NET programming as well and see if things not only get better here (doubtful) but in the job market as well (even though I have inside connections)?

Please feel free to comment on any or all of the above. I am looking for opinions, perspectives and the like as to a direction for the rest of my life. I am sitting on the edge and I need to either jump or back away, I am tired of looking over it.


Charles
Quality Assurance/Developer

 

[sleipnir214]

When you were developing the code, were you on the clock? If so, your company probably owns the code, irrespective of the fact that you used your own copy of VStudio to do it.



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TANSTAAFL!!

 

[Turpis]

I was on the clock, without shirking any of my actually responsibilities and using time that 'others' here spend to hone there solitare skills. I guess it would sort of be like if I determined that a colapsing roof of our company needed another support, so I brought in the steel and welded one in place while I didn't have anything else to do, and also without asking anyone if they wanted it, but the roof will cave in if it is taken out and they know it, but also don't want to recognized my efforts at the same time.

Mabye that is drastic.

Charles
Quality Assurance/Developer

 

[sleipnir214]

I'm assuming you're in the U.S.

Here's a page at he U.S. Copyright office:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wccc

Was this a work prepared by you within the scope of your employment?

If so, then your employer owns the work.



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TANSTAAFL!!

 

[Turpis]

That is the point sleipnir214, it is outside of the scope of my employment, but done on the clock. They don't care what anybody does with their workfree-time, I improved the company, others talk about football. I realize that I am most likely just going to walk away (that is my nature), but it would be nice to make them sweat.

So the only other real topic is whether to stay in this environment and live on the suppliment of school loans to go ahead and get an MBA (since I can study all I want on the job as well)(but further digging a debt-hole). Or would it be more valuable to plunge into the job market and get the experience as a full-time programmer with hopes of finding a company supporting (financially) a masters program.

My future goals are to be a System/Business Analyst and Project Manangement.

Charles
Quality Assurance/Developer

 

[carrr]

IMHO, you'd be a first-class jerk to "strip all modules and programs." That's flat out malicious. But...it sounds ("but it would be nice to make them sweat&quot like you've got a little malice toward them from the get go.
The fact of the matter is, you signed on for a position...a position which did not mandate programming. While you were able to evolve and program while in that position does not mean that the company has a responsibility to evolve with you.
I've been in similar positions many times in the past. Eventually, I've outgrown the slots, and when the company/agency couldn't flex with me, I moved along...without making anybody sweat.
You're lucky that they afforded you the opportunity to implement your dbs and what-not in a production environment. You gained valuable experience as a result. You did the work on the clock, whether you say they care what goes on in your down time or not, therefor, it is theirs.
Enough whining.
Go brush up the resume and call your contacts. It's time for you to move on to a position more deserving of your talents.

 

[sleipnir214]

I look back on your original post and I read: I was tasked with process improvement research a few years back to be able to talk ‘Lean’ with our customers. Out of that came the programming to improve things.


That sounds to me like it was within the scope of your employment. As I understand it, you don't have to be told specifically to create the program for it to belong to the company.



I don't think I can answer the second. My advice is in general is to look for that employer that will pay you to get you MBA, but don't quit your job or hold your breath.

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TANSTAAFL!!

 

[Nortellian]

I was told point blank that, ‘if I wanted to be paid to program stuff here, then I can just stop doing it!’.

I would say hasta lavista you non appreciative so and so's and find another gig.

 

[bi]

I would bring a copy of the program with me, but leave it intact at your current workplace. It will just inconvenience the folks who have nothing to do with whether you get a raise if you tear the modules apart. Don't burn any bridges because you never know who you are going to meet again in the future. If after you leave they need some maintenance on it, let them pay you a nice fat consulting fee to fix it.

And I would start looking for another job that would allow you to reach your goal of System/Business Analyst and Project Manangement. Staying in the place you are isn't going to get you there. Graduate school will help you eventually, but getting some programming experience (if that is needed for System/Business Analyst and Project Manangement)would be more useful at this point.

And try to keep your very understandable bitterness about your current employer in the background. It's not too attractive to prospective employers.

 

[edfair]

They own the code. Leave it be. And no tearing things out.
Your choice whether to make any further improvements.

And be gone at your first opportunity.

 

[CajunCenturion]

As sleipnir214 and edfair have already said, the code belongs to them as you developed it while on the clock, and it was within the scope of your work as you were tasked to solve a problem, and developing the code was your method of choice for the solution. You should NOT take it with you because it does not belong to you, plus is may contain trade secrets and/or proprietary processes, again which belong to the company.

Again, to add my opinions to those above, leave it alone. Since it belongs to the company, any attempt to disable it, or otherwise prevent its continuing function is tantamount to sabotage, and will subject you liabilities which will not may them sweat, but should make you sweat.

The fact that this has been going on for two years now further solidifies the company's position.

What you should do next is of course entirely up to you. I would keep my options open, look for another job and if you find one more to your liking, then move on. But given the job market, I would not leave, or even speak of leaving, until another offer is on the table. In the meantime, continue to do your job, take advantage of what that company does have to offer you, and if you so choose, continue to hone your software development skills. Be sure to include on your resume or CV, a summary of the types of software that you have developed and the resultant benefits to the company, without divulging inappropriate proprietary information.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[chiph]

I agree with edfair -- let them have the code (and don't disable it in any way). That would make you liable under the various computer crime laws.

Explain to them that you have to leave for a higher-paying job in order to pay off accumulated student debt. If they counter-offer you, I'd be hesitant to take it. I'm of the opinion that if you decide to leave ... leave without any hesitation or 2nd thoughts. But if they've been a good place to work for, you may want to take it. Your call.

If they want maintenance done after you leave, give them a quote at the going rate for contractors (but give them a discount if they made your departure painless). It would only be fair, after all, you wouldn't be working for them any more.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[bi]

And what is he going to show a prospective employer if they ask to see one of his programs?

 

[skiflyer]

Who asks to see a copy of your programs? If you're talking source it's bad form to show it off, if you're talking functionality, it's unlikely he'll have the productions environment hanging around to demo a program he wrote for someone else.

In the source case (and quite possibly the working demo case depending on what it does) it could also be some very hairy legal ground, that's protected intellectual property.

-Rob

 

[Turpis]

Hi all, thank you for the discussion. I never really had an intention to take the code and run. I wouldn't have been able to do that if everybody had suggested that I do just that. The sad fact is, that when I do leave and they need me to help them (if they call), I will probably jump happliy at the oppurtunity to help again and I will even have a hard time charging them anything for it. I have done numerous jobs for our sister company (same owners) and that was on my own time and I never really charged them much either.

CajunCenturion - I have been doing just that, I have not let them know that it is my intention to leave. The last person that went to the owner and said that they should be paid better or they are leaving was escorted to the door right at that moment. As we speak, my two brand new computers are on the way to decorate my office and facilitate a testing environment that I desparately needed. They think that I am there for life! The only really malicious thing that I am doing is that until I actually walk out the door I am trying as hard as possible to make sure that they will never forget how much of an impact I have had and that if anybody ever has such an impact again that they will consider paying to keep that person there. I feel bad for all of my end users that will eventually suffer if something ever crashes and I am not there to fix it in a jiffy. I really hate disappointing people and people are going to feel that way when I leave.

Chip H. - I have been in that position at my last job. I didn't take the offer. I realize that once you announce you are leaving, offers to stay rarely ever solve a problem.

bi - Thank you, my father (a project manager, and former business/system analyst) said the same thing about the usefulness of a masters.

My problems with the owners goes way beyond the workplace, and it is not my problem alone. I simply have a work ethic that does not allow me to do anything but work my hardest to constantly improve myself and the workplace. How I feel, or how others feel, has never influenced my decisions all that much (I have worked there for seven years). I am just now in a position that I can leave and not be financially insignificant in changing careers.

The main reason that I posted this thread was to see, from fantastical to reality, a discussion from peers about feelings I have had about being a significant IT influence at a company without recieving any recognition for my efforts (and see if anybody else has been there [carrr], or if I am the only sucker) and to see if the pursuit of a MBA or experience would serve me best in my next step...

Thank you all again.

Charles
Quality Assurance/Developer

 

[Turpis]

Hey, Rob(skiflyer) speaking of interviewing for programming positions and showing off demo or some such. At what point do you 'show' them something to prove you can do the job? I have a sort of project portfolio that I have been working on here and there for months, that is more or less a 27+ page report on my major projects. Is that useful?

Charles
Quality Assurance/Developer

 

[skiflyer]

I'll tell you what I did, but I by no means am a resume expert, I made a list of significant projects, mind you I was fresh out of school, so this was a relatively easy project.

I used the project name, and under that I put the most significant task or two involved in accomplishing that.

IMO, 27+ pages is too much, perhaps for a CTO position, or a third round of interviews it could help, but one thing that was always impressed on me, is that they're not going to read more than a couple pages for positions which are not Senior/Executive level positions. And if it doesn't get read, it doesn't matter how well it's written.

I think the showing thing is rough, in my experience most people will quiz on what you've accomplished rather than asking for a demo, or as is sometimes the case, give you a computer and say, code it... but if someone asks for code, it's a completely respectable response to say, I'm sorry, due to the nature of the development I feel I would be in violation of my customer's trust to show you that.

Anyway, this is getting to be a topic more suited for
forum654

Perhaps we should discuss it there

-Rob

 

[edfair]

What you will find is that a large percentage of IT people have the inner drive to expend the effort to get jobs done than in any other environment.

I haven't been there in software but I have in hardware. Multiple times in fact. If you show the tendency to overwork you'll find somebody to use you.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[chiph]

edfair -
You're right about that. I'm finishing up two month's worth of 55-hour weeks (we needed to catch up on some stuff), and I'm about fried. Vacation is coming at the end of the month, so I'm really looking forward to it.

If you don't draw a line and decide how much of your life you're going to give your employer, you'll be taken advantage of.

In Turpis' case, I think the boss doesn't realize what a contribution he makes to the company. Sure, there's lots of IT people looking for work these days, but people are not interchangable parts, and any new hire may not be able to pick up the job that quickly (or ever!).

So when you have a boss who is unappreciative (intentionally so), you need to start looking to move.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first