The need for security restrains the science and art

[Tarwn]

It is unfortunate that all of the technical or highly useful systems have to be protected. That in most cases it is more important to a user that the system be protected than be efficient, more useful, or downright perfect.
I think there have been several times that I wished we could do away with the security considerations and just program, because I think in a lot of ways that security is holding back our work in both the engineering and the theoretical science fields. I agree that in this day and time quite a few people take advantage of security flaws and so on, but I think it would be nice if an area could be created that was "crack free". Kind of an area built specifically to forward the art, science, and engineering of our fields without having to worry about security, theft, etc.
I know many people would say that the security issues are, in and of themselves, a science, but that is only because lately we have had to spend such a great deal of time and efort protecting ourselves from ourselves. I would like to see that same effort put into advnaces in other areas of the field, I think we have slowly been falling behind in sveral areas because of the heavy concentration on security.

I'm hoping to open a discussion on this, the idea of ethical behaviour producing leaps for the science versus unethical behaviour holding it back.
-Tarwn "The problem with a kludge is eventually you're going to have to back and do it right." - Programmers Saying (The Wiz Biz - Rick Cook)
"Your a geek!" - My Girlfriends saying

 

[DonQuichote]

Personally I don't think that anything can be 'crack free'. I can't prove the theorem, but I think that if anybody can get into a system, anybody can get into the system. You can make it difficult, but not impossible.

In fact, most protections are harder to program or build than to crack.

As for the ethical side: Lots of protections go as far as making normal use impossible. I think there should be a law against that, as the sold software does not meet its requirements.

For example: If you buy AutoDesk programs, you are not allowed to set the system clock more than 2 hours forward or backward, or change your system configuration.

Best regards

 

[sleipnir214]

Tarwn, you're making an assumption based on facts not in evidence. That assumption is that everyone in the world is as nice as you. Although I have found a majority of our species' members can be trusted, there is that small percentage that makes life miserable for everyone.

Your original flawed argument doesn't just apply to programming or the internet. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we never had to have locks on the doors to our houses or cars? Wouldn't it be convenient if banks didn't lock up the money at night, so we could make a withdrawal any time we like?

And your idea of a "hack free" zone is interesting but unworkable. Take this similar discussion from the "Where is IT going in the next 5 years" forum: thread656-337649.

Either your "hack-free" zone must be completely self-contained and separate from the rest of the internet, or your "residents" will need to access resources outside your zone. If you can accomplish the first, have at it. But if the second is what will happen, then you've just opened up your users' systems to being hacked when they go to the larger world and bringing home stuff. Then, since your "hack-free" utopia would not have emphasized security, everybody in the zone would be screwed.

The same argument can be made in the real world. You can build an enclave where no one has to lock his doors, but once a cable installer notices the locks on the doors and mentions the fact in a bar one night, you won't be able to install locks fast enough to stop the theft of everything everyone in the enclave owns.

As far as whether ethical behavior helps or hinders the advance of science or art, I think you can find examples to argue either way.

Unethical behavior can hinder the advance of science. There are also numerous cases of scientists "cooking" the results of their experiments to prove what they know to be true. In some cases, their results were thrown out, only to have their cooked results later verified by better experiments. The cooking of results hindered the advance of science by not delaying acceptance of new advances.

But Jenner's smallpox vaccine is an example of unethical behavior's advancing science. Jenner observed that milkmaids who had had cowpox were resistant to smallpox. So he deliberately infected an 8-year-old boy with smallpox. Happily, Jenner was right. Young James Phipps was later proven to be resistant to smallpox. Jenner's actions were ballsy, but unethical.
______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!

 

[onpnt]

OK, I haven't read the complete posts and /I apologize for replying befor hand/ but half way thru I want to say that there is one system out there that is crack/hack free.

AS/400

The way IBM made the AS/400 midrange was actually really interseting in the way they made it impossible to hack into. A bit of components(hardware) merged with software makes it impossible. the only way to crack it is to open the panel and play with the guts of her. Besides that the OS is impossible to no it's location /in a sense/. the little guys in the room programming it are going to take that one to their grave with them.
A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.

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[Tarwn]

I think I have been misunderstood. I did not mean to say I think that the world would actually work as a less secure place or that I wanted to go off in the hills somewhere and join a cult based on never locking the car.

My basic [quote: flawed] assumption wasn't that the world would be a better place, just an expression of curiousity over what could be done with the time and energy currently used to create and maintain tighter security.

This was more of a commentary on the fact that the need for security has slowed the advancement of the rest of the field. That the protection and enforcement of ethical behaviour has actually drained part of the energy that could have taken our field in other, interesting, directions.

Repetition: I was not assuming everyone was nice, I generally attempt to make no assumption and give plenty of room for people to screw up if they are going to. I also was not speaking of a 'crack-free' environment or the possibility of crack free software.

I apologuze for any misunderstandings,
-Tarwn "The problem with a kludge is eventually you're going to have to back and do it right." - Programmers Saying (The Wiz Biz - Rick Cook)
"Your a geek!" - My Girlfriends saying