TDM or VoIP?

[NastyNed2]

Starting a new thread. This is a slight shift of topic from thread 798-1427344.


Well, now BR2, you may have just started a conversation that will enlighten me. Or help me keep my boss' feet on the ground.

We're currently Nortel, with an Option 61C we call our main switch and several Options 11s scattered around town. We're working with our vendor to IP enable the 61C to accomodate buildings that are to small to justify another 11.

The boss, however, and the Mayor to a degree, are starting to think IP and Cisco are the greatest things since sliced bread. My feet aren't planted in the TDM cement, but I'm not ready to abandon TDM just because people are watching Cisco commercials on TV.

Can some of you with IP experience help me out with some of the pros and cons? For now, we're just going to add a signaling server and media card to the 61C, and our remote building with only 10 phones will be on our enterprise phone system instead of a few POTS lines of their own.

 

[acewarlock]

My experence with IP at work and at home is I hope I never need to call 911 as the IPdoes down at least twice a day and the phone system only went down once in 3 years at work and as far as I know the copper never went down at my house, so I trust the good old fashion phones more. Thats why I also have 2 Cell phones.


This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.

This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.

Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs.

 

[phonz1]

depending on your current software release, you may already be IP enabled! In my opinion, Cisco is a joke.... They put up alot of money and IP isnt taking off like they'd thought.... You have the Nortels in place, use them!

 

[acewarlock]

What Rls of SW do you have on your systems? It's alot safer to use both and not put all your eggs in 1 basket.

I have never worked in a company that the LAN wasn't going up and down.


This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.

This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.

Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs.

 

[biv343]

VOIP operates as as good as the infrastructure you run it on. If your network isn't up to par, you don't have/implement QOS, then don't expect VOIP to give you good reliability. If you build out a solid data network and have knowledgeable staff install and maintain it, then you'd may as well invest your money in VOIP.

Anyways, the definition is below. I got a laugh out of it.

VOIP : A technical breakthrough aimed at bringing the insecurity and inconvenience of data networks to the telephony world.

 

[acewarlock]

I'll tell you, if phone service was as bad as any data network I've used, I would go back to using a CB radio.


This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.

This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.

Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs.

 

[DocVic]

Supporting Cisco equipment is very costly. It will eat a hole in your service schedules. Seems like a new IOS every other month. The hype of VoIP is just that, Hype. Once your users start transfering large files or lots of data, the VoIP side of that network will suffer. Then, your network people will want to use QOS, at a couple of grand a month on top of the network. The costs just keep going up, and your reputation just glys out the window, for getting them into this mess. Depending on your Nortel's Release of software, adding VoIP should be a snap, without changing everything out and saving them millions.

Regards,

DocVic

 

[acewarlock]

In the last hour my power has gone out for about 15 times for 1 min or less, but I'm on a UPS so it didn't effect my computers at home, but if this had happened at work where our computers don't have UPS then my IP phone wouldn't have worked.


This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.

This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.

Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs.

 

[biv343]

Power issues go along with the whole network buildout. If you do things right, you install POE switches and install an appropriate sized UPS in the closets. If it's a really critical area, then you have emergency generator power as well.

It all goes back to how much do you want to spend. I agree though that from a simplicity standpoint, you can't beat a digital/analog phone and wire.

 

[acewarlock]

Very few if any companys provide UPS power to each person, so again it costs more to go IP.


This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.

This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.

Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs.

 

[biv343]

Each person doesn't need a UPS. You put a UPS in the wiring closet so your POE switch remains up. If you've got a desktop PC, you're out of luck if the power goes out, but your phone still works.

 

[Johnthephoneguy]

My company has a hard enough time getting IP over IP, much less bringing voice into the mix haha

JohnThePhoneGuy

"If I can't fix it, it's not broke!

 

[NastyNed2]

More UPS equipment, more batteries, more planned maintenance, which I have learned in my two years here does not get performed the way it did in my previous life in the nuclear world. When the network guys were talking abour their quarterly reboots, I used to ask them with a firendly chuckle when the last time is they had to reboot their phone!! In our metrics, they got excited when a server was online for 100 days. My PBX was online for well over 1000 as far as I can remember. Probably more, if I were to look it up.

So when there are POE switch problems or QOS problems and the phones don't work, it will be the phones and the phone guy who get blamed, not the network guys. We are a police department, so at least our crucial systems are on a pair of very oversized redundant UPSs, and we have a generator with lots of unused capacity. But we don't have a UPS in every closet.

Please keep the valuable comments coming. Remember that mayor who doesn't want 10-digit dialing and who wants a cordless phone? He and my boss (the CTO) have been watching Cisco commercials and are bringing in a lot of Cisco equipment for the city-wide fiber network. We've broken ground for a new police department, so there could be a big push for Cisco VoIP.

 

[Deweyhumbolt]

If done right. Layer 3 POE switches on UPSs. Do a network assesment b4 you start, institute QOS tagging, Use point-to-point telco connections or at least an MPLS, it'll work fine, and save allot of $ on Intralata and LD calls. Besides the phones are cooler.

 

[TDMtek]

MY two cents (and that all it worth) is why would I spend three times the money to try and get a VoIP system as reliable, as the TDM based system I have in place now?

 

[acewarlock]

Qwest had VOIP in there office and were trying to get us to switch and every time i called over there I couldn't get though so I had to call them on there Cell phone. So much for us buying VOIP.


This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.

This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.

Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs.

 

[JcBWF]

I've had a Cisco VoIP for over 3 years now and IT'S FINE. You need to make sure you do QOS and have the network guys do it right, but other that that just make sure you don't buy it from Cisco. FIND A VAR. All that bewing said, when I transition my sites of about 1000 people to start and thene the enterprise of 160,000 plus, it will be a NORTEL platform. CISCO is to $$ to scale to a decent size.

 

[MagnaRGP]

VoIP truly makes sense when you have a new build and the right IT people/policies in place. Or, if you have multiple sites that would benefit in toll bypass.

Is this a state-wide police department or a city police department (assuming city here since you refer to mayor).

FOr a city wide police dept. the economical thing to do would be to voip enable trunking between branches to allow site to site Co-ordianted Dial Planning. This lets you keep your existing infrastructure in place (save $$$$) but allow the site to site benefits and/or a centralized voicemail platform. For the new build office you COULD VoIP enable it completely to save on capital build out costs, but there is no need to forkilft out perfectly good sites.

This is where Nortel has Cisco beat hands down. Add VoIP for the benefits where they can most economically be realized while mainitaining the best existing infrastructure.

 

[911guru]

NastyNed said:

"He and my boss (the CTO) have been watching Cisco commercials and are bringing in a lot of Cisco equipment for the city-wide fiber network. We've broken ground for a new police department, so there could be a big push for Cisco VoIP."

So go ahead an ask Cisco how many PSAPs they have here in the US. Then ask Nortel and Avaya.

That should give him his answer on the phone system he should buy for the new Police Department. Ask any Public Safety Communications Director what he would buy. Nortel and Avaya will be the most common answers. There is a reason for that. For those curious, I don't know of ANY Cisco PSAP installs. There were a few, but they are long gone. Nortel has about 45% of the PSAPs, and I'd imagine Avaya has got about the same providing the backend critical communications.

911Guru

http://pbx-e911.com

 

[NastyNed2]

Many more good comments. One clarification, though. Yes, we are a city police department, and I take care of phone systems for the rest of the city. We lease telco point-to-points to tie all the switches together (DID routing and so forth) and offer a central voicemail platform. We're trying to get a prefix (or at least a block of 3000) to implement a city-wide 4-digit dialing plan. We currntly have 4-digit in most buildings, but they're scattered over every prefix telco has in our town. It's grown in little pieces at a time. Small buildings, like firehouses and the dog pound, have a few POTS lines and are not in 4-digit dialing. Perfect candidates for IP, we think.

911guru talks about the PBX for the PSAP. You and I know each other, Howard. Welcome to Tek-Tips. I've seen your recent posts. We will no doubt keep the 911 switch completely separate from the day-to-day business switch. And you make a very good point about Nortel, Avaya, vs Cicso.

BR2 and Ace suggested I start a new thread for this topic. Thanks for the suggestion! Lots of interesting viewpoints here that I need to discuss with my boss and his other direct reports.