Sudden Shut Down 5

[kimhoong79]

My pc suddenly shut down itself randomly. At first, I thought it might be the cpu fan problem, so I get another cpu fan that spin at 3400++ rpm. By using Motherboard Monitor, I detected the temperature is around 55~60C, which for me, is high.

After shutting down itself, my pc cannot be switched on anymore. After pressing the power button, I can see that the cpu fan is spinning but it does not boot itself!!! After sometime (and with some luck), it will be normal.

FYI, before I use the other fan, I did apply some kind of gel (given by my friend, saying that it's good) between the surface of processor and the heatsink.

Things that come across my mind on this problem are:
1. Processor
2. Power Supply
3. Motherboard
4. CPU fan

I'm still new in PC troubleshooting, hopes you guys can give me some suggestion on this matter, thank you.

 

[kimhoong79]

I forgot to include my pc spec.

Processor P4 2.6
Motherboard Intel D865PERL
RAM 256 DDR
1+ years old

 

[stduc]

Check this thread out - it may help?

http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1023670&page=2

 

[stuuked]

when you turn it back on listen to the beeps (post beeps) and take it from there. goto the motherboard manuf. website and have a look at the manual. that will tell you if you are overheating. did yo overclock anything.

 

[kimhoong79]

when switch on the power, i just see the cpu fan spinning, no sounds or other movements. if there's a beep, then the situation might be better.

no, i never overclock it.

however, i realise that there's piece of metal-like layer on the heatsink which is wearing off. I wonder if that's the problem...

 

[stuuked]

i dont think that is the problem either, because the beep would tell you that there was a cpu problem. are you able to get into bios, if not i would check video card or connection, see if when you first turn it on if the monitors orange light turns green for a second. if not that then pull processor and smell it, if it smells burnt then it is and thats not fun for a 1 year old computer. these processors now adays run hot. if it does not smell burn put it back in, try again. if not that check all motherboard jumpers, if you didnt touch anything than this should not be the problem, but one thing i will tell you is if those jumps are set to wrong mhz then you will get no picture, no beep, no nothing.

one last thing would be the bios, you could clear the bios, usually a jumper setting would do. if that does not do it then download latest bios and install.

I know it sounds like a lot to check but if its not any of these, i hate to tell you that it may be the processor, you will have to get another to try, but make sure you have the right fan to go with it, alls it takes is 5 seconds without a fan for it to get burnt.

 

[pcs007]

kimhoong79,
When a system is not starting up. You'll need to eliminate the possibilities one by one.

As usual, disconnect all drives (disconnect both power & data cables), remove all add on cards leaving only the video card & make sure it is seated securely in the slot.

You mentioned you changed the fan, Did you remove the CPU?If you did, check to make sure all the cpu pins are ok. Make sure the heat sink is seated correctly & in good contact with the cpu.

Turn the power on & see if it works. If it works then power off and connect the drives & add on cards one at a time and see if it powers on ok. Repeat until all items are reconnected.

If it does not work & no beep (it usually beeps if the video card is faulty) then most likely the motherboard or cpu is fried. Borrow a motherboard and put your cpu in & test it.

Just try the above & see how you go & post back.

Have fun.

 

[micker377]

Describe further this "metal like layer" on the heatsink. This may be a leftover piece from a factory plastic heatsink tab. If this is a leftover piece, you wouldn't get proper cooling even with the new "paste". Is this piece on the "shiny" side of the heatsink (between the heatsink and CPU)?

 

[kimhoong79]

A friend of mine told me most likely the processor is fried because a motherboard with a processor will also might sound no beep. However, I will check it by using another CPU fan + heatsink because I just bought a CoolerMaster for my another pc. If there's no good news, I will then test the processor using my other pc.

micker377, the so called metal-like layer is a piece of metal, looks like our ordinary aluminium foil for cooking. It's square, as if it is so for some purpose. It's being pasted on the heatsink.

BTW, I would like to mention that the first time when I install the cpu fan, I think I might have "overdose" the grease on the cpu, do you think that matter?

 

[paparazi]

kimhoong79
The alluminium foil/black substance is the generic heat transfer pad fitted to Intel OEM heatsinks (do you guys just work with AMD?)
If the heatsink/fan was new when fitted it did not need any additional paste applying.
Now that the heatsink has been removed (the pad is a use once only item) this foil transfer material will need completely removing and the base of the heatsink cleaning before re-applying with a quality paste like Artic Silver.

Possibly the thick layer of paste contributed to your high CPU temps.

But note* 60C is still within safe limits so I doubt the CPU is damaged.

Although this behavior is typical of a dead CPU is is more commonly attributed to a failed power supply where one rail has gone down, giving the appearance of power but without post or boot.

Martin




We like members to GIVE and not just TAKE.
Participate and help others.

 

[kimhoong79]

paparazi is right!!! That "alluminium foil" thing is the problem... just now, I tested the pc using my new bought (but not for this computer's use) cpu fan and it run smoothly. Burn-in test for 10 mins only generate temperature around 56C. So I guess it settled. Then I change it back to the old used (but working) cpu fan, but this time I remove that "alluminium foil" and apply some grease on it. Afterwards, I started it and test it again using Burn-in test for 10 mins which was generating 56C heat... Good news!!! For this moment, I considered this case is solved. However....

I have another situation here... which is when I took out the newly bought cpu fan from my existing pc, I mistakenly damaged one of the four sockets that holds the cpu fan's grip. How am I going to tell this???... ok, let's try it this way, in order to set the cpu fan, we need to put the heatsink on the processor and then we need to tight it up using 4 sockets, right? One of the sockets was damaged now. Can I replace it from another motherboard?

Right now, I'm still using this pc with only 3 sockets that hold the heatsink/cpu fan... but it runs hot!!! I don't even dare to overclock it! Burn-in test for 1 min generate heat at 70C!!! BTW, what is the "acceptable" maximum heat for cpu temperature?

Can anyone help me on this matter?

Lastly, I appreciate for all those who wrote in to give their opinions. Thank you very much

 

[paparazi]

kimhoong79
You really cannot use it like that!
As you can see from your temperature readings, the heatsink simply is not sitting correctly on the CPU.
Do not attempt running the PC in it's current state.

70C is too hot! and although your CPU should still be OK don't try and run it at this temp for any length of time.

Generally temps 65C PLUS are considered too warm to give reliability and stability.

You might be able to get the "cage" part off an old motherboard, I've never seen them advertised but I'm guessing someone must sell them as I know they can get broken from time to time.
Martin


We like members to GIVE and not just TAKE.
Participate and help others.

 

[kimhoong79]

oh well, I have already checked the temperature closely. It seems that whenever I'm not opening heavy-duty applications (like games), it runs fine in 40~50C. Once I try to run a game, it reach a whopping 75~80C!!! I turned it off at once. Luckily it's still ok and I'm still be able to use for normal web-surfing.

From what you mentioned, I see that the "cage" (i got the terms already, it's called "heatsink holder") can replaced. If so, then my problem will be smaller. I think I can get it from old, unused motherboards. I think I need some time to get it, maybe in days. So at the moment, I just live without games. I guess i wouldn't die because of this. Anyway, I will post in again when I get the result. Thank you

 

[kimhoong79]

i guess it's the time to put on a post-mortem for my PC problem... the real problem with the overheating problem is actually a power-supply problem... I changed it and it now runs smooth.

while for the second PC problem, I found out that different motherboard supports different kind of the heatsink holder... however, the difference is very little. I got a holder from a friend and it can fit into the motherboard, but my friend didn't bring along the "nail" (plastic, white, long, nail-like stuff) to tighten the grip between the motherboard and the holder... so, right now I'm waiting for another holder...

anyway, I guess all my problems are solved and I would like to say thank you for those who are willing to spend their time to share their experience/knowledge on solving my problem... thank you.

 

[garebo]

Just one final note. On ANY cpu, intel or amd, you ONLY need one of the two. Grease or the shiny metal pad, never both. And, if you take off the shiny metal pad you have to take off all the glue and stuff off the heatsink. Use a plastic credit card, dont use metal!!! YOu can use alcohol to clean it off good. If you make a scratch in the area where you took off the shiny metal then use sandpaper to sand it smooth again. YOu need a smooth surface to go onto the cpu and you can only have either thermal paste or the shiny metal, never both.

Good luck in the future.


Good advice + great people = tek-tips

 

[paparazi]

garebo
Not only smooth, but flat.

Using sandpaper on it's own is kind of correct but slightly missleading advice:

1) Sand paper is not particularly suitable, it needs to be wet and dry, the type used in a motor vehicle body shop as final finnish before painting (use white spirit/Turps or similar to wet the paper) but it has to be very fine 1000 or even 1600 grit.

2) Simply "creating a smooth surface" does not gaurantee the surface is "TRUE" so may not have a large contact footprint.

The method I suggest is using a piece of glass (out of a picture frame would be ideal) apply fine carberundum (valve grinding paste) and a drop of white spirit.
Hold heatsink completely flat against the pane of glass and use circular movements to grind heatsink base flat and smooth.
Clean off and check regularly, re-apply until satisfactory finnish is attained.
Martin

We like members to GIVE and not just TAKE.
Participate and help others.

 

[garebo]

I guess i should have. I sometimes dont get too technical for fear someone will think i am pushing it too far sorta thing or trying show off.

What I was referring to was taking off the rest of the goo and giving it a light sand, guess i coulda mentioned to use wet\dry with turps.

Your way, though, is great for big scratches or real gouges, i just didnt see any indication that was case here, lol. But ya, thats what i use, the wet\dry type and some turp or mineral spirits. Havent had to go that far in a while! You can get a real mirror finish though!

And i have seen some bad ones!! Some people try and take goo off with a metal putty knife or a chisel and what a mess! I've fixed a couple like that.

When i read about it the first time the guy wrote about thinking of looking at the heatsink sideways with a microscope and seeing all the hills and valleys in it even when its brand new. Now think about it when there is a gouge in it. The paste is supposed to fill the gaps between the hills and valleys but it will only go so far and wont do gouges.

The glass and carborundum, thats a new one on me, but i can see how it would make a nice mirror finish and true as well.





Good advice + great people = tek-tips